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Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by tlb on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:46PM (#30419767)
Languages not ruled by a BDFL are subject to every team member wanting to get their pet feature in, motivated by ego, fame, and career.

This happens with all corporate software, as people compete to (for instance) foist their new videoconference system into your calendar flow. That's sort of tolerable for end-user software, but horrible for programming languages where feature-feature interactions grow as N^2.

Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by rob74 on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:57PM (#30420515)
In the special case of Swift, with it being the language of choice for iOS development, I imagine a lot of people at Apple also want to have a word to say about the direction of development.

One notable remaining exception to this trend is Go. They are committed to the "simplicity" mantra and so far they have stuck to carefully weighing and discussing any feature added to the language. I know that some consider it too simple and the "glacial" pace of development not exciting enough, but I personally appreciate it...

Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by caycep on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:29PM (#30420849)
Go has Rob Pike as a sort of BDFL within google, no?

Apple it seems does well w/ a Scott Forstal or a Bertrand Serlet running cover for their engineers. maybe not so much if there's a giant committtee....

Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by rob74 on Monday February 21, 2022 @05:03PM (#30421220)
The idea and most of the initial development was by Pike, Ken Thompson and Robert Griesemer, and their explanation for the simplicity of the language was that no feature was included unless all three of them could agree it was necessary. Thompson has since retired, others have joined the "core team", and Pike doesn't seem to be that active anymore in terms of actual commits - however he may still have an active role in guiding the development, I'm not following the development that closely, so I can't tell. But the way I understand it, it's more of a team effort than a BDFL situation...
Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by xhevahir on Monday February 21, 2022 @09:20PM (#30423354)
"Benevolent junta," maybe.
Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by ksec on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @03:15AM (#30425254)
>Apple it seems does well w/ a Scott Forstall or a Bertrand Serlet

And before that Avie Tevanian.

After that it was Craig Federighi. And I dont like the decisions and directions since then to say the very least.

Sometimes I still think about Bertrand Serlet leaving, the year that Steve passed away or 6 months after Steve took leave of absence. I wonder if he saw what was coming and simply decided it was time to leave.

Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by caycep on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @03:31PM (#30446016)
Sometimes I wonder if Craig finds it harder to say "no" more and put his foot down. And his priorities, for better or for worse, seem to be on developing new features vs. fixing bugs/robustness. Granted, he's had to oversee the forking of OS X into 3 active branches now (iOS, iPad, Mac), a processor transition, etc etc.

And this is pure kremlinology at this point, but I feel like Apple Music, at least the client part, has to go back under Craig and not Eddy....

Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by why_only_15 on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @08:50AM (#30440901)
Rob Pike is retiring, or perhaps already retired.
Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by amw-zero on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @02:55AM (#30425142)
I totally agree. That’s why I’m completely pro the BDFL model. Committees don’t produce good products.
Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by Hareti on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @04:21AM (#30439268)
The BDFL model has its own flaws, primarily with longevity and succession - the fl - plenty of examples where the lead got bored, retired or went on their own path. Let alone how they deal with criticism and review (constructive or otherwise).

Committees work when they have a shared vision, and a base strong enough to keep them on that path.

It’s clear from Lattner’s statement that Apple have moved that vision, have not brought the group along with that change and the result is wasted effort and a passive aggressive approach.

I would posit that rather than operate as a committee, instead that leadership is being exercised by a limited few and the structure is being retained as a fig-leaf :(

[dead]
Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by mixedCase on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:18PM (#30422035)
Democracy is a way to get things done while minimizing the potential damage inflicted by actors that have a lot of power on a large scale for long periods of time.

It is not the most efficient way to do things. It explicitly sacrifices some of it to help prevent leaders with uncontested power from coming up with things like concentration camps for dissidents.

Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by infogulch on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:29PM (#30422130)
Democracy also defends against things like exploiting emergency powers to enact martial law. Wait...
Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by jquery on Monday February 21, 2022 @10:08PM (#30423607)
Democracies allow for the dispersion of unlawful protests. They also crush insurrections, that isn’t limited to authoritarian regimes.

The point of civil disobedience isn’t to avoid jail, it’s to show you believe so strongly in your cause you’ll go to jail anyway, so people will listen to your cause and maybe sympathize.

If we skip the step where civil obedience doesn’t result in consequences then we remove its signaling power and it just leads to a race to the bottom.

Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by lenkite on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @12:57AM (#30424479)
https://twitter.com/justintrudeau/status/205322201187106816

Justin Trudeau: "When a government starts trying to cancel dissent or avoid dissent is when it’s rapidly losing its moral authority to govern"

AKA Protest is terrific only when it doesn't happen in my backyard. Trudeau had no problem supporting "illegal" protests which blocked roads and essential supplies in other nations.

Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by jsiepkes on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @04:41AM (#30425845)
Well, that isn't specific to Trudeau. Most people their actions aren't consistent with their words.

People say all kinds of things without really having a vision or philosophy behind it. It's just how they feel at that particular moment. Unfortunately most societies offer more reward for easy answers and saying what people want to hear then staying consistent.

Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by majormajor on Monday February 21, 2022 @07:55PM (#30422847)
There's a lot of shitty "single creator with all the power" software out there too, obviously...
Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by amw-zero on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @02:56AM (#30425146)
Almost no one practices direct democracy because yes. It’s not good.
Re:Chris Lattner left Swift core team by bigcat123 on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:11PM (#30421973)
No, democracy is for governing human affairs in the areas of value based judgement, that being primarily in politics.

Software engineering is largely non value based, they are technical based. On things they designed for and on things they base their code upon. In such affairs, democracy is a incompatible framework. It's like my c++ compiler does not compile Java code, that's a technical design and facts. It has no implications to anything political.