IMO, what we need, is regulatory obligation to separate SW/OS and HW.

HW-makers, just want to sell HW. They don't care about the SW, and will just do whatever they can to sell the HW. We need to force HW makers to open SW. It can even be beneficial for them by reducing their development costs.

And then, we can have SW-makers competing on long-term support, and features, and openness, etc.

Does such a scheme ring any bell? Yes, there are actually already such small niche products! Ever heard of Windows? RedHat? SuSE? That's exactly what they are doing! We just need such schemes on smartphones.

How would a separation work? I can't say I have a full solution, but here are some ideas:

- Remove the arbitrary limitations for backups. Both Android and iOS backups are severely lacking when it comes to user backuping their device to their own services. Why is this important? Because IMO the biggest user lockdown is not being able to transfer data

- Impose some standards. I don't like UEFI, it feels clunky, and old, but it's standardized, it's pretty clear what are the responsibilities in it.

- Make "bootloader unlock" more standard. I think that ideally, it would be HW switch or button, which is hidden, that is documented in user guide. Like chromebook's unlock screw. Actually, it shouldn't be so much an "unlock", but rather a "change root signing keys", but anyway.

There are some limitations for sure, and currently, the best way to get longer support on as many devices as possible is through Project Treble, so it requires to have Android as a basis provided by the OEM. It doesn't feel right to me. I dream of being able to impose Linux mainline support, but uh, no, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Also, even though I would want to force Apple to unlock their bootloader, they are not doing anything wrong wrt long term support, so forcing this down to them on the ground of right to repair, doesn't feel ok.

> It can even be beneficial for them by reducing their development costs.

There's no world where phone makers stop customizing the software they ship, even if forced to allow users to install competing OSes. It affords some product differentiation and helps tie users to the platform. Even if you let me install an open OS on my iPhone tomorrow, I couldn't possibly do it because all of my digital life is tied up in Apple's ecosystem (including the human capital of learning to use the platform well).

I think the poster you replied to was also advocating a symmetric requirement that you could get the OS without hardware, i.e. take iOS and the Apple ecosystem with you to your favorite hardware vendor's phone.

Your point raises a third axis (services) but also illustrates to me how hopeless this all is in our current world. In my ideal world of consumer freedom, vendors would not be allowed to bundle hardware, software, nor services to prevent interoperation.

I despise all this subscription and rent seeking to try to turn every product into a locked-in service dependency. As an aging computer scientist and long-term developer of open and free software, I feel myself drifting further apart from a world that so willingly embraces an asymmetric and transactional existence with regular people locked into some amorphous, global company town.

> There's no world where phone makers stop customizing the software they ship

This is exactly what Pine64 is doing with their Pinephone. They probide no software at all, just hardware.

Here's a more complete list of OSes [1]

Pinephone is China or Hong Kong based. It comes with one month warranty (within EU, warranty must be 2 years).

Maemo Leste is not based on Android, neither is Sailfish OS. These are Linux OSes, but the Android emulation layer (which SFOS has but costs money for license) might be Android-based, I don't know. Maemo Leste contains no Android emulation, it actually predecesses Android. Nokia was into Linux-based mobile devices back in the mid 2000's.

You could also add devices like Planet Astro Slide to the list as it comes with a hardware keyboard (if its like the Cosmo one then I can say: the one Pinephone has, isn't quite as good, but is also relatively cheap). I posted about recent smartphones with hardware keyboards here [2].

Iodé might also be interesting, I don't know anything about it other than its a LineageOS + microG adaptation, like /e/

[1] https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_Software_Releases

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30415716

> It comes with one month warranty (within EU, warranty must be 2 years).

Retail version will be available soon, $100 more expensive, with the right support. See here: https://www.pine64.org/2022/02/15/february-update-chat-with-...

Nit: Pine64.com is china-based (it handles hardware design and production, software is outsourced to the OSS community).

whoa hold on there, apple is doing mighty fine with delivering updates to their hardware.

For anyone who's unaware, the current iOS 15 supports iPhones going back to 2015.

Their software quality for the latest and greatest updates leave much to be desired, but they take care of their existing devices better than anyone else on the market.

For a phone. Android has set the bar incredibly low. Kobo has supported their $130 Kobo Touch eReader from 2011 longer than any iOS device. On PCs its trivial to run modern software even on ancient hardware like a Pentium 4 with Linux/BSDs. Even Windows can let you easily get 15 years out of a device.

after some loong wait-and-look-at-trends, i switched to sailfish last year.

linux / qt and all. good.

Android-app support.. ~ yes. good. If app doesnot work it's mostly because it wants to googleize me.. and fail. i can live with that.

Some websites won't open because somewhat old webkit - the hell with them.

No native clients for this or that.. meh. i can live with it.

it's essentialy like a computer in pocket as it should be. everyday things. ssh and what not if u really want.

Not an eye-enabled-wallet as all else has become..

Does it have voice recognition for commands? That really is the issue I think Open Source has: they don't have the resources for comprehensive competitive voice recognition interfaces in phone OSes.

Why is voice recognition important?

For phone OSes? Seriously? 50% or more of my interactions with my phone are:

"Get directions to X"

"Set timer for 20 minutes"

"search for local banks"

"Call X"

"<name of restaurant> hours"

If Open Source phone OSs can't do that, they won't compete with the spyware OSs.

Now do the same list, but only for OS/hardware that supports verified boot.

Spoiler: probably left with only Graphene and Calyx.

Security matters, and no!, hacks/exploits don't only happen to those who are specifically targeted!

I don't disagree but GrapheneOS for instance only supports handsets for as long as Google does. I think some of the other distributions also follow this rule.

I'd say this is why we need e-waste legislation.

> GrapheneOS for instance only supports handsets for as long as Google does

Because it's not a project with a goal of breathing old life into provably less-secure hardware.

If you want to reduce e-waste, know you will be reducing your security, and use Lineage or whatever targets the most devices,

not the most security.

I don't think it's fair to say security only decreases if you install Lineage. Yes, you'll lose some security during the boot process and with debug mode, but you also get newer security patches fixing exploits your older OS would be susceptible to.

Also, my point was more: if you need to run Lineage, your phone hardware just isn't as secure as a Pixel, in multiple meaningful ways.

Could you point to a case where a fully patched Pixel, running Google Android or Graphene, has a vuln that is fixed by Lineage?

Seeing nothing but the opposite.