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Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by antognini on Sunday February 20, 2022 @06:01PM (#30410104)
I highly encourage anyone who is interested in the subject to listen through John Searle's lectures on the philosophy of mind [1]. He taught a course at UC Berkeley on the subject for many years, and one of the years was recorded and uploaded to Youtube.

He walks through the history of the subject from Descartes onward and spends a lot of time about how philosophers got very excited during the 1960s and 70s as computer science was just taking off because it seemed that at long last we had a new way to explain consciousness. This idea is that the brain is just a kind of computer and consciousness is just doing a certain kind of computation. If we wrote the right program and ran it on a sufficiently powerful computer, we could make other kind of computers conscious as well.

But Searle is most famous for the Chinese Room thought experiment which is (in my opinion) a fairly decisive counterargument against this position. That, along with the What Mary Knew thought experiment and Nagel's What Is It Like to Be a Bat together made the "consciousness is computation" position increasingly untenable.

It took about 40 years, but by the time these lectures were recorded it seems that the tide has really turned among philosophers of mind (Searle has his own biases but he tries to be impartial in explaining all sides). At least among philosophers who specialize in the subject it's hard to find many who seriously believe that a GPU running Resnet is conscious.

Obviously there's a whole semester's worth of material in those lectures and the arguments can't really be summed up in an HN comment, but anyone who is interested in thinking about these questions should really give the whole course a listen.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi7Va_4ekko

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by bonoboTP on Sunday February 20, 2022 @06:23PM (#30410244)
In some more "rational"-oriented circles, the Chinese Room argument is seen as obviously wrong, outdated and mysticistic, for example see Dan Dennett.

The Chinese Room would need to be so enormous, and it would work so slowly, that it's not a good intuitive analogy. It also introduces a homunculus actor that reads, interprets and understands the instructions, which muddles the analogy and focuses our attention to the conscious quality of the person following the instructions.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by Barrin92 on Monday February 21, 2022 @12:53AM (#30412384)
The notion that the Chinese room is 'mysticistic' is one of the most bewildering responses to it to the point where I don't think people who make that argument actually understood Searle.

Searle, simplified holds that consciousness is a property of very particular biochemical systems, not a disembodied thing that exists independent of the matter it inhibits.

It's the rational-oriented circles ironically enough who almost dabble in a Cartesian Dualism by positing "computation" or "minds" as distinct from matter. In fact with on occasion almost religious-sounding implications.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by kirrent on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:41AM (#30412944)
Come on, really? You think there's a significant subset of rationalists who are quasi-Dualists? Not just people who are bog-standard materialists who are just being sloppy with language when talking about emergent conscious systems because they don't care about or actively disdain most philosophy?

On the other hand, Searle confidently states that a perfect quantum mechanical simulation of a human brain would not be conscious. This is because it somehow lacks the intentional states of the brain it's perfectly simulating. He doesn't feel the need to justify that a human mind has these states, because our daily direct experience of consciousness cannot seriously be in question. The daily direct experience of consciousness that a perfect simulation of a human brain would assert that it feels is, somehow, different and we can't trust it.

At every step in his argument there's caveats, misleading allegory, and dismissals that are so much of a stretch it seems pretty obvious he's retroactively arguing from a position that our biological conscious minds are somehow special and mystic.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by Barrin92 on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:24AM (#30413207)
I agree that Searle is often too strong in his claims, but here is what I think people need to take away from the Chinese Room and why it is useful.

That solving a problem, or an array of problems that a conscious mind can solve may be perfectly able to be solved by a non-conscious machine. That the consciousness part may not be relevant in the problem-solving process, and that consciousness may be unique to living beings who have distinct physiology, anatomy, ways to process information, that computers as they exist now do not have. That a simulation is not necessarily the same thing as the thing it simulates, and does not have all of its properties.

These are good questions none of which are mystic and which following from Searle's argument. And I think you're really underestimating to what degree people are lured in by the 'magic' of neural nets because else we wouldn't be in this thread. A neural net that does some function approximation is not 'slightly conscious' unless we're going full in on panpsychism. Even from a functionalist perspective, the neural net performs nothing that is reasonably involved in what we consider to be responsible for consciousness. Nobody ever claimed a TI-83 is 'slightly conscious', or that Stockfish is merely because it plays exceptional chess.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by DonaldFisk on Sunday February 20, 2022 @07:25PM (#30410604)
The Chinese Room argument might have a number of problems, but it can be simplified. Put someone in a room who cannot see colours (an achromatope), and give them three different colour filters in the form of plastic sheets. A person outside the room passes sheets of paper of known colour into the room, the achromatope puts them under the colour filters, thereby determining each paper's colour, which he tells the person outside the room. The person outside the room thinks there's someone in the room who can see colours. But achromatopes can't see any colours, and will readily tell you that they have no idea what it's like to see colours.
Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by bonoboTP on Sunday February 20, 2022 @08:17PM (#30410920)
That's a very different situation. It's not about consciousness, but qualia, and is more like the Mary's Room [0] argument (though not the same).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_argument

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by DonaldFisk on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:52PM (#30421110)
If you think it's very different, can you tell me when, in people or animals that we'd agree are conscious, that there's consciousness but no experience of qualia, or experience of qualia without consciousness?

Experience of a stream of qualia is how I'd define consciousness. This is also consistent with the medical definition (leaving aside the other minds problem). If you have a different working definition, how does it differ from mine?

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by bonoboTP on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @06:04PM (#30435129)
These are all vague terms that ultimately don't seem to map to anything grounded in reality.

But consciousness has something to do with seeing oneself as an agent in control, not simply executing an automatic script but being in control and knowing that one is in control, seeing the self also from the outside in a way and freely moving between these levels. I don't know if consciousness is possible without qualia. And anyone who claims to know probably also knows how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by antognini on Sunday February 20, 2022 @06:54PM (#30410439)
Yeah, there are definitely some holdouts for the functionalist position like Dennett. Searle goes through Dennett's objections in detail in the lectures.
Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by bondarchuk on Monday February 21, 2022 @08:08AM (#30415477)
Lecture 6 starting at about 22:00 is the Chinese room argument. https://youtu.be/zLQjbACTaZM?t=1322 Systems reply starts at 34:00. To be honest, I haven't found the detailed treatment of the counterarguments that you promised in another comment. His counterargument to the systems reply is that he's flabbergasted, and "it's not gonna work if you think about it". Then, of course, he gives the "what if I memorize the rulebook and do it all in my head" spiel. If you're committed to the systems reply, the man and the stuff in his head etc. is still a system and the systems reply holds just as much as before. It's fun indeed to hear it from the man himself, but from his tone it's abundantly clear that he is just not willing, or perhaps able, to give it serious consideration.
Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by earth_walker on Monday February 21, 2022 @12:31PM (#30418323)
My completely naive reply to the Chinese room is that as stated doesn't learn from the inputs and outputs.

Let's modify it slightly to include a second stream of responses to the room's answers. Then make a guidebook that adds new rules based on the growing history of interaction.

Now the rulebook doesn't just compute a 1-1 map of input to output: each interaction updates not only its experience, but all present and future answers. An input to the system invokes memory, taps into experience, evaluates nuance.

Given lots of time and interaction and a good broad set of questions and responses, does the system understand Chinese? If it does not, then what is missing between it's understanding and ours?

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by PartiallyTyped on Sunday February 20, 2022 @06:13PM (#30410173)
A Resnet is not conscious, but one could argue that an RL agent, by some definitions of consciousness, is conscious.

If the measure of consciousness is the ability to have a subjective experience, then that requires that the object has an internal state that is modified, thus the same experience in different agents results in different modifications, ergo, it is subjective.

If a requirement for conscious experience is the capacity for self reference, then Hofstadter has already argued that that can be achieved with very simple rules of inference and natural numbers.

An RL agent that can plan ahead and take into consideration its own internal state could be argued to be conscious, by even stricter means that require that the agent is aware of its own existence.

To me, it looks as if humanity is trying to find ways to argue that it is anything but meatware. But I guess accepting that we are just computational units implies that agency is not a thing, and humanity isn't ready for this conversation.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by bonoboTP on Sunday February 20, 2022 @06:26PM (#30410255)
For many people, this is a transcendental, almost religious claim, so no amount of technical discussion will convince them.

Essentially, consciousness has taken on the role of the soul as the concept on which we hang our humanistic ideals, like the protection of human dignity and human life, human rights etc. Many people see this threatened when people say consciousness isn't special and human and instead can be possessed by silicon. That's what you are up against, when you argue in this topic.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by sizzle on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:32PM (#30419653)
Also worth mentioning is the Mind-body problem i.e. Cartesian dualism and related concepts

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind–body_dualism

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by emtel on Sunday February 20, 2022 @07:50PM (#30410763)
The Chinese Room is a really, really bad thought experiment. It's just an attempt at misdirection. It asks you to imagine a computer (one that operates on slips of paper according to rules that are written down in a big book), puts a human inside that computer, and then says that because the human doesn't understand what the computer program is doing, the computer program isn't conscious.

But this is just question-begging. The experiment purports to resolve the question "can a computer be conscious", and answers it by showing you a computer and claiming that it is not conscious.

Worse, the Chinese Room is straight-up Cartesian dualism. By placing the human inside the computer, Searle is preying on your Cartesian intuition that there must be a theatre of the mind where reality is experienced. And since Searle's homunculus doesn't understand Chinese, nothing can be experienced, therefore no conscious experience is happening in this system.

If I'm wrong, and the Chinese Room thought experiment is conclusive, it must be possible to reformulate it without the human. After all, the human does nothing but follow rules in a purely mechanistic fashion. Can anyone offer a reformulation of the experiment, that has no human, that they still feel is convincing?

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by antognini on Monday February 21, 2022 @12:19AM (#30412221)
You raise good questions, but I would really suggest listening through the lectures because Searle addresses all your points in a lot of detail. (It's a lot of material, but it's well worth it and he's an entertaining lecturer.) It's actually a bit funny that you bring up Cartesian dualism because Searle is pretty clear from the outset that he's of the opinion that Descartes's dualism was the worst thing ever to happen to philosophy. He certainly has no truck with it.

The question Searle is raising with the thought experiment is where the understanding of Chinese is happening. It's clear that the understanding is not happening with the homunculus. But if not there, then where is it happening? Some functionalists responded with the "systems response" which is that the system of the room plus the homunculus is what has the understanding even though no element of the system taken individually has understanding. He goes through a pretty detailed reply to the systems response, but the basic argument against it is that it's incoherent. There's no well defined thing that is the system. You can remove the man from the room and put him under a tent in a field. Where does the system end and the rest of the world begin?

You are of course correct that the experiment can be reformulated without the human, but that's exactly the point. A computer is mechanistically doing exactly the same thing as the man in the room. But if the man has no understanding and the room has no understanding and the system has no understanding, removing the human from the equation changes nothing. The reason Searle included the human is because saying "computer" invokes a lot of mystery to a lot of people as to what's going on. But a computer is doing nothing different than the man in the room.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by emtel on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:51PM (#30471536)
I've read one of Searle's popular books (Rediscovery of the Mind) and many other shorter writings. I'm aware he rejects dualism - my point is that the Chinese Room argument wouldn't even make sense to someone who had never been contaminated by dualist notions. Searle rejects it, but it has crept back in, imo.

His arguments against the "systems response" have to stand or fall on their own. The Chinese room doesn't have anything to add. If the "systems response" fails, then we already know a computer can't be conscious without any additional thought experiments.

Lastly, I think he goes much too far in dispelling the mystery of the word "computer". As Dennett and others have pointed out, a working chinese room that displayed clear signs of consciousness would be an artifact far beyond current human comprehension, either in scale or sophistification or both. Searle asks you to imagine a human taking slips of paper and calmly consulting a rule book and producing new slips of paper, and claims that it is "obvious" that this system can't be conscious. Well, I agree, but it's equally obvious that the system couldn't possibly display conscious-seeming behavior.

The best defense of the CR that I've heard is that it is only intended to prove that a _purely formal_ system (i.e. GOFAI) can't be conscious. I find this more plausible, but I still don't think the CR adds anything to that argument. And, to reiterate the previous paragraph, I think if you had a formal system that everyone agreed _seemed_ conscious, it would be such a complex artifact that it wouldn't be obviously unconscious in the way that, say, an eliza bot is.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by Ataraxiaist on Monday February 21, 2022 @07:48AM (#30415301)
I think at some point in the future studying consciousness will be as nonsensical as studying the soul.

I think that is all we really mean anyway and it is just wrapped up in different packaging.

Soul/spirit/consciousness all the same thing. Chasing the same ghost.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by joshuamorton on Sunday February 20, 2022 @08:14PM (#30410896)
I don't see how this follows at all.

The human is necessary to the argument. The argument, briefly is "a human with a Chinese dictionary and translation instructions doesn't 'know' Chinese, therefore a computer with a Chinese dictionary and translation instructions also doesn't 'know' Chinese."

It isn't an argument that no computer can be conscious, but an argument that a convincing simulation of consciousness is not sufficient to prove consciousness.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by emtel on Sunday February 20, 2022 @09:14PM (#30411226)
The conscious human is not a necessary part of the system, as he is just blindly following rules. Therefore, his lack of comprehension tells us nothing about the system in question.

I am sorry to mostly repeat myself. I am trying to think of another way to make my point, and coming up blank.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by joshuamorton on Sunday February 20, 2022 @09:16PM (#30411240)
> The conscious human is not a necessary part of the system as he is just blindly following rules

That...that's the whole point. If the human is just blindly following rules, so is the computer!

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by kbelder on Sunday February 20, 2022 @10:20PM (#30411614)
Maybe there's a small human inside the human's brain, not understanding the rules the human is following, and it's only the innermost human that is really conscious?

I think Searle's Chinese room argument is absolutely nonsensical, a bit like arguing about philosophical zombies. It's an argument that only makes any sense if you already are committed to mysticism or dualism.

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by atoav on Monday February 21, 2022 @02:24AM (#30412828)
> Maybe there's a small human inside the human's brain, not understanding the rules the human is following, and it's only the innermost human that is really conscious?

That would be the materialist idea of there being no soul, consciousess etc — just complex biochemical processes happening in matter. This is however not a satisfying answer usually because it fails to explain the consistent experience of ourselves, the worlds we can imagine, remember or think about, the feelings that haunt us etc.

If there is only material, where is our consciousness? Apparently our consciousness somehow emerges from that material, but how would a conscious computer then look? Would there be a difference between a computer that simulates conscious behaviour and one that shows the same behaviour but actually "has" conscious in it somewhere?

Re:Neural nets are not “slightly conscious,” and AI PR can d... by emtel on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:36PM (#30470554)
Yes, which is why I say that the argument is circular. It assumes its conclusion.

Either a computer program can "understand" Chinese or it can't. If it can't, we're done. If it can, then having a non-chinese-speaking human simulate the program won't cause it to stop understanding Chinese.

The presence of the human doesn't expose a contradiction in the assumption "a computer program can understand chinese".