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Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by londons_explore on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:05AM (#30345898)
There really needs to be a zero cost custom-domain email hosting solution.

I'd love to have webmail on my own domain, hosted by someone else, and with ads on the side. Those ads should generate ~$20 per user per year (after all, they can be targeted based on emails I'm sending and receiving, and I'll be looking at them many minutes every day - the perfect combination for high revenue ads).

With $20/user/year, there should be no difficulty paying the hosting costs of such a mail server and staff to look after it.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by rglullis on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:16AM (#30345973)
Why can't you just go around selling your data to the highest bidders and use the money to pay for the myriad of already-existing hosting providers?

I'll tell you why: because you are not worth that much to advertisers. If you are so cheap to the point of asking to get your data harvested, chances are you never going to be a high-value customer.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:53AM (#30347183)
> If you are so cheap to the point of asking to get your data harvested, chances are you never going to be a high-value customer.

But if you are so dumb as to not know your data us harvested, you are a great gullible idiot, er, I mean customer.

I don't think logic holds any water. There is no rational 'free market' reason you can't sell your data, it's just logistically too difficult to deal with millions of individual 'sellers' istead of paying $supplier to get all of it at once.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by rglullis on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:25AM (#30347661)
1) I did not say anything about not having data harvested.

2) Even if the data is being harvested, doesn't mean that there is any morality in trying to get a share of the profits. That doesn't make you smart, it makes you a cheap accomplice.

3) "free market" would apply only if all exchanged data were offered by those that own the data, and if they could determine how and when the data could be used. GDPR has shown already that some sites would rather not serve their sites to European citizens than comply with data regulations. You can bet that the intersection of high-value prospects who would be interested in selling their data for some meager dollars/year is very, very small.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by svnt on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:47AM (#30348015)
I think you underestimate the training/socializing effects of being raised with advertising, and the steps toward closing that gap already underway.

You can buy discounted TVs (and in some places they are the only TVs you can buy), which clearly have advertisements on them that others do not.

When more people wake up my bet is they will be accustomed to advertising, they will just want better advertising. And if one can get paid for receiving short-form entertainment with relevant product information, with appropriate branding I bet there is a market.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by rglullis on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:33AM (#30348726)
I replied in the other thread. The flaw in your argument is that the only way for "better advertisement" is through personal data selling.

Brave's model has shown that you can have a ad distribution system that gives more power to the users, the ads are still relevant, fraud is much more easily detected and it can still reward the users for their attention.

With zero knowledge proofs, you can even have a system where the advertisers only get to show ads for those that match certain criteria, but no personal data needs to be given away.

If you are working on anything that depends on direct exploitation of user data, I urge to go back to the drawing board and seriously consider the morality of it.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by hackerfromthefu on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:35PM (#30355720)
Fully agreed with the last paragraph - consider the morality of direct exploitation of user data, and the risks that it is used in ways not originally intended. Maybe read some history too such as McCarthyism, Stalinism and many related instances throughout history. This data exploitation that has swept through the world has the potential to be a terrible nightmare in the making.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by svnt on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:39AM (#30347879)
The issue is far more likely the low volume transaction (of one user) which is itself likely to be a consequence of lack of demand/reason for this service so far.

No one is set up to explicitly monetize your data with consent. It doesn’t seem like a bad idea once society catches up with it.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by rglullis on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:48AM (#30348027)
There is no need for the monetization of data.

Monetizing users' attention is enough.

Look at the Brave model. People get paid for the ads, no personal data is exchanged.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by tobyhinloopen on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:20AM (#30346007)
Sure, let’s do that. Where can I sell my data?
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by rglullis on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:21AM (#30346022)
No one wants to buy the data from cheapskates.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by dspillett on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:34AM (#30346921)
The comment you replied to said exactly why this won't work: “If you are so cheap to the point of asking to get your data harvested, chances are you never going to be a high-value customer.”

Though I think “high-value bit of cattle” or “high-value mark” are closer to how the stalking side of the advertising industry sees us!

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by weird-eye-issue on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:10AM (#30345927)
Just a heads up you could use Cloudflare Email Routing to forward *@foo.com to [email protected] for free

It looks like Zoho might have a free plan too but I've never tried it https://www.zoho.com/mail/zohomail-pricing.html

ImprovMX also does email routing for free along with webhooks and such

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by lkxijlewlf on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:28AM (#30346103)
I use the free plan from Zoho and it's been solid. But... I have been using it for a while and it is my understanding that certain features I have (IMAP) are no longer in the free plan.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by spaetzleesser on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:53AM (#30346397)
Just looked at their pricing and it looks quite sane. How good is their calendar and does it sync to iOS and Android?
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by hultner on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @05:18PM (#30353633)
Their Calendar is exactly like any other caldav icalendar, works fine on iOS and any other platform using the calendar standard protocol.

Been using Zoho for many years, switched from my free grandfathered Google Apps account to Zoho around 2014.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by lkxijlewlf on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @03:21PM (#30352090)
I use the Zoho app (iOS and Android) for mail and calendar, so yeah, it syncs that way. I haven't tried setting up another mobile app.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by ZetaZero on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:56AM (#30346421)
Cloudflare Email Routing is still in private beta. I'm eagerly awaiting it
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by jgrahamc on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:05AM (#30346538)
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by theunixbeard on Wednesday February 16, 2022 @02:27PM (#30364560)
One thing that wasn't immediately clear from the blog posts --- does Cloudflare's solution allow configuration to also send emails from the custom domain email address?

In GMail (and using Google Domains to host my DNS) I've configured this by inputting various settings as per the guide here:

https://support.google.com/mail/answer/22370?hl=en

The key relevant step is: "For school or work accounts, enter the SMTP server (for example, smtp.gmail.com or smtp.yourschool.edu) and the username and password on that account."

Is that kind of thing supported with Cloudflare?

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by ZetaZero on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:56AM (#30348141)
Thanks. I've been on the waiting list for quite a while. But I didn't get any notification.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by weird-eye-issue on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:26AM (#30346815)
You just have to apply for it for each domain you've added and they approve it within a few days
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by dspillett on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:50AM (#30347137)
> There really needs to be a zero cost custom-domain email hosting solution.

Unfortunately I doubt that would work. Any email solution hoping to get significant use will need to be able to send as well as receive and/or store & organise, because if someone is needing to run their own send route elsewhere they'll run their own receive route there too, and any free email solution that allows sending will be abused in any way possible by junk mailers and other scammy types.

It would be a constant fight to keep the service off black-lists and dealing with the backlash from:

* people blocked rightly because of service abuse

* people blocked because of a false positive in what-ever automated checks you do (the admin involved in doing all the checks manually will be excessive enough that it can't all be done manually)

* those who are inconvenienced by the service, even temporarily, being on a blacklist

And that mass of spammers such a service will attract will be worthless: they'll have everything quickly automated and won't even glance at a single one of the adverts.

> With $20/user/year, there should be no difficulty paying the hosting costs

I doubt $20/user/year would cover it unless you get a decent number of subscribers. And I doubt there would be enough people who would sign up for this, who are not already using gmail or similar big providers that already exist or mail provision included with their web hosting or domain registration service.

Of course my gut reaction could be quite wrong here: why don't you give it a go? If you are right then there is a market to corner that no one else is looking at yet so you could make it big.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by xuki on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:11AM (#30345933)
Some domain registrars provide a catch all email for your domains. Just forward that to your own gmail (or whatever service you are using). That way you are in control of the email addresses and can take advantage of free email services.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by maratc on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:36AM (#30346183)
I use mail forwarders on my custom domain so anything sent to [email protected] is simply forwarded to [email protected].

Except the domain renewal fees, it's free.

If Gmail blocks me, I can readdress the forwarding to hotmail or usa.net or whatever.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by mynegation on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:06AM (#30346557)
That works but to cover your bases you need some sort of regular IMAP backup as well.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by kwhitefoot on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:26AM (#30348609)
I just use Thunderbird and tell it to keep everything local.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by manigandham on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @06:57PM (#30354628)
The largest email providers already show ads to the free tier. They don't earn that much per user and it's just not worth supporting custom domains at that scale.

If they cant make it work, why would anyone else have more success by offering even more features for free?

And if you're already buying a domain name then why not just pay for the email account too?

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by malka on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:57AM (#30348151)
It is a basic utility, and it should be provided by (nation) states. Every citizen should have a domain, or a subdomain.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by pydry on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:25AM (#30346070)
Something like improvmx but, like $3-4 a month instead of $9 with just bare bones POP3 and SMTP for personal use only would suit me.

I'd like to self host data and webmail and pay somebody else manage the headache of delivering and receiving.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by utucuro on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:46AM (#30346306)
Fastmail handles the whole thing admirably as far as I'm concerned.

Get your custom domain, create a mail user with Fastmail: [email protected]

Set things up nicely (do read the docs), particularly look at catchalls, wildcards and aliases

Give out separate email addresses to each and every service you use: [email protected]

Bonus: You can easily send emails back from each address you give out and if you create a label called "service" for the example above, mail coming to that address will be automatically labelled without needing to create a rule.

I used to use spamgourmet and used to get some resistance from sites using misguided email validation considering it a spam service (oh the irony) - now with Fastmail, everything just works.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by chrisweekly on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:15AM (#30347490)
+1 for Fastmail "just works". It's a bargain, has great UX, and all the features I could think of.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by theothertom on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:09AM (#30346592)
My domain registrar provides free, simple mail hosting with a domain - maybe yours does too?
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Calamitous on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:57AM (#30347241)
Sounds like a startup opportunity you should jump on. ;)