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Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Grustaf on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @07:36AM (#30345639)
When you put it this way, it's really quite remarkable how tenuous our hold is on even paid for digital services.

There is really nothing you could do with a car to prompt the car maker to take it from you. And the state will only take it if you break the law in particularly dangerous ways.

When it comes to other possessions it's even harder for anyone to take them away from you. If I take a kitchen knife and stab someone with it I will go to prison for sure, but I don't think they will take the knife away. They definitely won't ban me from buying knives.

But when it's a digital service, even something as crucial as a banking service, it's seen as normal that you can lose them for posting offensive things on twitter. Perhaps it's because we haven't had these digital services for long enough to consider them as really belonging to us, so we accept that they can be taken away at the slightest provocation.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by pjc50 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @07:56AM (#30345817)
> even something as crucial as a banking service

Interestingly the problem of people excluded from the banking system has been addressed by statutory regulation in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/basic-bank-account... ; see also discussion at https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldfi... which covers the question of people with inadequate ID.

Getting your email account wrongly banned is an injustice, whether trivial or costly, and whether or not you have alternative arrangements. That's why people are (generally) rightly cross that it's happening. That feeds into wider questions of "why is justice so expensive" and "how does a local justice system address the bad behavior of a multinational". These questions tend to get resolved incredibly slowly.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Grustaf on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:02AM (#30345866)
Good to hear that you have protections around this in the UK. I know that in Sweden several political, and even ideological organisations have had their accounts frozen because of things they said or held true. Entirely legal things I should add.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by foxfluff on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:37AM (#30346188)
Notice the difference between organizations and private individuals (which the quoted UK regulations seems to protect). I don't know if it's EU wide but Finland also requires banks to provide service to private individuals.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by pjc50 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:17AM (#30347522)
The rules only apply to bank accounts, and there are still circumstances under which they can be frozen, but "bank just decides you can't have your money" is a lot rarer.

Edit: see Which? who are always good on consumer issues: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/09/why-banks-are-freezing-... : alleged suspicious activity; https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/22/exclusive-h... inactivity

Traditional British solution: a QUANGO and an Ombudsman.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by danielscrubs on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:22AM (#30346029)
Could you provide links? We have similar rules so I'm a bit surprised...
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Grustaf on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @02:29PM (#30351423)
Not really, this is people I know personally. I know some of them have mentioned it publicly but can't find any links. Would be in Swedish anyway. I know two people off the top of my head that had their personal accounts suspended for legal political activity, for organizations it's pretty much any organisation on the right side of the spectrum.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by adolph on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:22AM (#30346752)
> people excluded from the banking system has been addressed by statutory regulation

I wonder if the effort behind this is a Baptist and Bootleggers moment. Surely some maybe most want to solve something that they see as a societal problem, others see opportunity a la payday lenders, and others see an opportunity for social control. Maybe the people who see not-banking as a social problem also want to use the end result to "nudge" participants in the right direction.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by elif on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:25AM (#30346063)
Cars are also digital service platforms which can and do take away things. I am currently playing a safety score minigame to unlock enhanced driving features. If I pay $2000 my software will enable my minivan to have a 0-60 of a Ferrari. This is all premised upon a connectivity package I'm obligated to pay for but have been gifted for a year by the manufacturer.

To put it more bluntly, my eyeballs are watched by AI to make sure I pay attention enough to deserve the full use of my vehicle.. it's beyond punitive, it requires my positive behavior.

ALSO bonus, if I did something with my vehicle that resulted in losing my account, I would also lose access to my home electricity system.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by tsatsawayy on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:59AM (#30346467)
Most cars do not do this. Teslas are famous for their DRM, restrictive connectivity, and shady upsells. Those will show up in the "cons" column of any honest review.

A normal car in 2022 will not constantly surveil you. No critical functionality is tied to an online account in any non-Tesla mass-produced car that I am aware of.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by thr0wawayf00 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:20AM (#30346728)
Neither of these points are true. Other manufacturers like Toyota are getting into the "features as a service" game with things like keyless entry.

On the surveillance point, I worked for an auto software company that partnered with a big auto manufacturer on a feature. We were granted access to an API that could geolocate any vehicle made by this company in real-time given its VIN. I volunteered my car's VIN to test with (I drove the same make as the company we partnered with) and confirmed that the API returned real-time location data on my 2019 vehicle. If you own a car that was built in the last 10 years, you are more than likely emitting your location to an internal service maintained by the manufacturer.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by noelherrick on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:09AM (#30347426)
That is amazing since VIN's are often visible from the outside. This is just so open to abuse, especially if it was a casual to lookup as you make it seem (no verification that you were the owner and for just a lark). We as engineers need to establish a code of ethics. Seriously, every profession needs to have a "do no harm" clause because clearly companies have zero ethics.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by thr0wawayf00 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @04:50PM (#30353255)
To be clear, we signed a contract that explicitly prevented this API to be used for anything other than our particular commercial use case and access to production creds to this service was heavily restricted. I never once saw the service being abused, but you're absolutely right. The question I kept asking myself was: who is out there using this service against the vendor's TOS for whatever reason? This industry was largely built and shaped by people that didn't care at all about the rules, and the longer I work in this field, the more cynical I become about the effectiveness of just adding more rules. It feels like a pinky promise at this point.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Kon-Peki on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:30AM (#30347730)
This is true, for example:

https://www.toyota.com/privacyvts/

You do have the ability to opt-out, but it's not usually a simple process.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by hackerfromthefu on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:47PM (#30355789)
The supposed ability to opt out. How do you know Toyota truly removes that capability?
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by nudpiedo on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:48AM (#30346330)
What car is it? In what country did you purchase it? To me that sounds beyond reality…
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by coliveira on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:23AM (#30346766)
It starts with a T.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by jstanley on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:43AM (#30347943)
Why not just say what it is?
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by coliveira on Thursday February 17, 2022 @08:10AM (#30372655)
Use your imagination.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by jstanley on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:34AM (#30346162)
What car is this?
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by htrp on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:58AM (#30347258)
You got a model X?
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by mns on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @07:50AM (#30345765)
But you can't really download a car, can you? :) Joke aside, I think we are actually going in the opposite direction. Looking at the way Tesla wants/already does keep a score of your driving, maybe self driving cars in the distant future, I would predict that we are going in the wrong direction when certain people and groups will want cars to drive away from you back to their home base or your car to refuse to start or unlock if you misbehave.

Somehow I am not sure why, we as technical people, and I would even think that most of the people in these fields are also into fiction and sci-fi, we are taking only the worst things from novels and stories, instead of the good ones, VERY slowly transforming our society in an dystopian nightmare.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by c-linkage on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:27AM (#30346086)
This is because we work for businesses that are fixated on generating revenue and profits rather than on improving the human condition.

Since this is Hacker News I'm sure there will be some who can say the two are compatible, but it will only appear that way to the wealthy and the elites -- the rest of us will gain none of the benefits and will be seen solely as "customers" or "partners" from which revenue must be extracted.

One only need look at the transformation of business from selling products to selling services, changing a sales relationship into a rental relationship. For businesses operating key or critical technical infrastructures this is equivalent to a corporate "universal basic income", such as will never occur for the common man.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Grustaf on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:19AM (#30346715)
> This is because we work for businesses that are fixated on generating revenue and profits rather than on improving the human condition.

Not quite. Few businesses have ever been focused on improving the human condition. The new thing is their ability to control our lives, and our acceptance of that, both in terms of laws and our quiet consent.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Grustaf on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:00AM (#30345841)
Yes that is true, as software keeps eating the world, software mores will eventually rule everything. If it has a microchip in it, it might ban you.

For cars I don't think this future is distant at all, ten years max.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by CRConrad on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:28AM (#30386948)
> taking only the worst things from novels and stories, instead of the good ones, VERY slowly transforming our society in an dystopian nightmare.

I have only one objection here: Doesn't feel all that slow to me.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by coliveira on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:30AM (#30346874)
I wouldn't say slowly... It seems this thing is becoming a dystopia quite quickly.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by mhh__ on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @07:51AM (#30345768)
There's no way for them to take your car away... Yet.

Maybe one day your Tesla will simply drive off if you don't pay the bills, or worse work for the SEC

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by ballenf on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:24AM (#30346055)
Tesla's (and increasingly all cars) are software with attached motors and they don't need to seize them physically to take them. Or disable supercharging, etc.

Just like your fridge may not dispense water if you buy the wrong filter. Or your random IOT enabled device will refuse to work if you don't let it phone home with surveillance data.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by mhh__ on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:26AM (#30347670)
It'll probably need new legislation to protect consumers.

Although I was joking about the SEC thing, what happens if Elon get's a grudge? Some would say it's your fault for buying the car, but some guarantees for consumers are useful.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by kingcharles on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:06AM (#30347386)
> If I take a kitchen knife and stab someone with it I will go to prison for sure, but I don't think they will take the knife away. They definitely won't ban me from buying knives.

This is true. Generally if you stab someone the police would seize the knife as evidence, but after your trial if the prosecution didn't file a forfeiture case against the knife, then it is still yours and you can get an order from the judge to return it :)

p.s. civil forfeiture cases give the best names, e.g. United States v. Article Consisting of 50,000 Cardboard Boxes More or Less, Each Containing One Pair of Clacker Balls, 413 F. Supp. 1281 (D. Wisc. 1976)

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by bjarneh on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:18AM (#30345991)
> There is really nothing you could do with a car to prompt the car maker to take it from you.

Maybe not take it from you, but with new cars that are always connected (Tesla et. al). They can certainly make them quite terrible if they want to... access to superchargers has been removed when "owners" use unauthorized work shops for instance.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by htrp on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:03AM (#30346523)
This is going to be one of those situations where we will have legislation passed, especially if our digital identities are tied to 3rd party providers.

Alternatively, the government will just take over basic id services (think first.last@yourcountry).

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Grustaf on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:15AM (#30346669)
We already have state run (more or less) digital ids in both Sweden and Denmark. I don't know if anyone has been denied for ideological reasons though.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by marcosdumay on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:37AM (#30348791)
That's the difference between products and services and between owning and renting.

Anything that you get from the internet is a service. Even connecting to the internet is a service. And providing a service is ongoing work.

What we need is recognizing services as essential and guaranteeing people has access to them. This is something for the government to do, and the guaranteeing access part is quite complicated when the service can be exploited like email.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by gbasin on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:14AM (#30347483)
Not to be That Guy, since I'm not a shill, but "Bitcoin solves this" — not really today, except for pure cryptocurrency, but I can imagine a future where ownership of our access to these services is controlled by public blockchains ...
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Grustaf on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:00AM (#30348213)
Why would that solve anything? Google could still cancel my gmail if I say something politically incorrect, regardless of their database technology. It's not like making my email public would change anything, they are not reluctant to cancel people just because others can see it. If anything, that makes the cancellation all the more effective.
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by magicjosh on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:17PM (#30355974)
If your email were hosted on a public blockchain, Google could not kick you off.

- Decentralized file hosting for all the emails using IPFS instead of Google's servers

- Decentralized login using ENS / Ethereum Name Service instead of Google's login

- a UI on top of your data, plus an outbound server for relaying to/from non-blockchain email accounts

Overall, you end up with portable data thanks to IPFS, and a login through ENS to whatever UI you want to use/pay for.

This seems like a win to me. Haven't seen anything yet that pulls this together but the pieces are there. Maybe someone here wants to prototype it.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Grustaf on Wednesday February 16, 2022 @04:24AM (#30357899)
By hosted, do you mean that the blockchain would act as the mail server? Wouldn't that be incredibly slow and inefficient?
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by magicjosh on Wednesday February 16, 2022 @10:46AM (#30361479)
By hosted I mean stored on IPFS. It's a bit like downloading a file from Bittorrent in that it can be fast and distributed, but with some added crypto layers.

The only part stored on the blockchain is the address itself. The files are not stored on the blockchain.

More here: https://docs.ipfs.io/concepts/what-is-ipfs/

Appreciate your question! That should get you started.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Grustaf on Thursday February 17, 2022 @10:23AM (#30374028)
Alright, the data can be stored on IPFS, but where will the computations be carried out?
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by magicjosh on Thursday February 17, 2022 @11:41PM (#30382202)
High level, Ethereum is intended as "computer", and IPFS is intended as "storage". They complement eachother well.

Beyond that, it depends on what you mean by "computations".

Our example is setting up decentralized email. What computation is needed to send and receive email?

1. You may mean the computation needed to encrypt and decrypt the emails. That would happen on your computer locally.

2. You may mean the computation to send and receive emails. I'm not sure how/where this would happen in this example. It might be on the blockchain somehow.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by Grustaf on Friday February 18, 2022 @03:51AM (#30383506)
I mean any server application needs compute. Not sure how many clock cycles are needed to run a mail server, but since the Ethereum world computer is like a 10000 times slower than a single laptop, I figured it wasn't enough for really any kind of compute?
Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by magicjosh on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:50AM (#30386406)
> any server application needs compute

I'm curious about this as well so will be learning more about dapps (decentralized apps). Starting here

https://blog.chronobank.io/what-is-a-decentralised-applicati...

https://ethereum.org/en/developers/docs/dapps

For messaging dapps, check out the new Blockscan chat by the creators of Etherscan : https://decrypt.co/91226/etherscan-creators-launch-ethereum-... (note: NOT very decentralized yet)

This is past my level of expertise, but you could map out what those clock cycles of a mail server are going towards. For example, serving files, like we talked about, can happen on IPFS. No compute needed there beyond what IPFS already does.

Re:Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for? by magicjosh on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:22PM (#30356005)
I like how you put this. Yes, it does seem like our ownership of digital services is tenuous, unlike owning a knife or a car. I could wake up tomorrow and conceivably be locked out of my Twitter, Gmail, Facebook accounts forever.

Perhaps in the new era of tech we'll have better data portability and ownership. Sure, maybe Google can kick me off but they should still let me export all my data.

See my reply below about public blockchains.