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Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by njarboe on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @03:18AM (#30343984)
Iowa has the first primary every year in the US[1]. Iowa produces more corn than any state[2] while being 32nd in population. Corn is very important to people in Iowa and as long as the first two facts remain the same, corn will continue to be highly subsidized and supported in other ways by the US government.

[1]https://www.uspresidentialelectionnews.com/2024-primary-sche... [2]https://www.cropprophet.com/us-corn-production-by-state/

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by brnt on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:23AM (#30346776)
It would be good for Americans to understand how their layered elections work out into something quite undemocratic. Designed to be so [1] in fact. Things don't need to be this way, and to set the country up for bad incentives this way, but it requires understanding who exactly is fighting and benefiting from the current set up.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Money_(book) Yes, it's a book. Highly worth the time it takes to read to make the point in full.

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by paledot on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @04:47PM (#30353229)
There are a lot of elected positions in the US that actually undermine democracy by themselves being democratically elected, such as sheriff, judge, and indeed election commissioner. These are jobs where the correct thing to do is often at odds with the popular thing to do, and favouring the latter over the former is potentially disastrous.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by talideon on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @05:41AM (#30344870)
So, rather than a banana republic, it's a corn state?
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by nemacol on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @12:36PM (#30349773)
Corn Commonwealth or MaizeTatorship
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by greedo on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @04:09PM (#30352761)
Well, there is a Corn Palace in South Dakota...
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by jwarden on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:57AM (#30347236)
Corn Kingdom?
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by jillesvangurp on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @03:48AM (#30344153)
Precisely my point. Maybe that's not a very future proof plan for Iowa? That sounds like at some point they are going to have to cut loose from the federal handouts.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by greenonions on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:24AM (#30346785)
It is apparently easier to make the subsidies continue forever than to consider growing alternatives.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by DerArzt on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @04:21PM (#30352902)
Yep. When it comes to specialization farmers are not excluded. All crops, if their production can be mechanized, need specialized tools to farm at scale. In Iowa at least this looks like combines that are tooled for corn and soybean to allow for cycling the fields every few years.

(Not an expert, just a resident)

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by gutitout on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @04:55PM (#30353334)
That is the American issue in a nutshell.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by akvadrako on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @04:35AM (#30344434)
Iowa doesn't have a primary at all, but a caucus.

New Hampshire has the first primary. It's a state law.

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by dpeck on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @07:55AM (#30345805)
Outside of a relatively minuscule number of people who view politics/elections as sport no one cares and they’re treated the same on the national stage.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by stjohnswarts on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @03:41PM (#30352396)
Sure but most people don't understand how truly awful the caucus system is so it's worth repeating from time to time.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by colordrops on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @07:37PM (#30354944)
Might want to mention why it's awful then. It's much easier to manipulate for one.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by stjohnswarts on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:56PM (#30356179)
I was on a phone. It's easy enough to check wikipedia and follow sources from there.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by bsenftner on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:22AM (#30346036)
Iowa. Former Iowans here. The nation's politics have screwed Iowa, with it being the first primary state all manner of overt attempts of political favoritism occurs in there. The economy is screwed left, right, and sideways with all the attempts at political favoritism. And the intellectual mind there is equally turned around with large helpings of religious infringement on world views, and a material amount of corporate shenanigans because Iowa is tax favorable for corporate headquarters - most the Insurance and large publishing has corporate headquarters there.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by alistairSH on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:25AM (#30347663)
The nation's politics have screwed Iowa

Iowa's own laws have screwed Iowa. State law mandates the caucus occur at least eight days prior to any other state's proceedings (similarly, NH law mandates they be the first primary election). The DNC and RNC might also like it that way, but both states are complicit.

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by bsenftner on Thursday February 17, 2022 @09:53AM (#30373656)
As if these states exist independently; come on, you know political operatives and dollars from every state, and every wealthy anyone anywhere on the planet flow into these states trying to influence American elections.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by AniseAbyss on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @07:35AM (#30345627)
I always thought the GOP hates welfare programs...
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by gruez on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:27AM (#30346821)
As always, a party's political beliefs are more complicated than being pro-[thing] or anti-[thing]. To steelman the GOP, I'd say that they're against welfare for individuals because for the most part they're transfer payments that don't require any "work" to obtain (short of filling out some forms). They think that's bad because it encourages laziness. To my knowledge farm subsidies aren't implemented that way. They're implemented as price supports or loan programs, so you still need to actually produce something to get that government money.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by HWR_14 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:32AM (#30348707)
> To my knowledge farm subsidies aren't implemented that way.

You'd be wrong. Farm subsidies exist in several forms, but one is for letting fields that could produce x lying unused. Some "farmers" just sign up for that program every year and havent planted anything since they inherited the farm.

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by ZeroGravitas on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:57AM (#30347230)
Paying someone to do something destructive in order to produce something you don't want isn't very smart, even if it keeps them busy in a way that fools them I to feeling productive. If we all did that it would be worse than doing nothing.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by gruez on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:11AM (#30347440)
>to do something destructive

is growing corn a destructive activity on net? If it is, then we shouldn't just be cutting subsidies, we should be banning it outright. As it relates to this discussion (ie. "are republicans hypocrites because they're anti individual welfare but pro agricultural welfare"), we can safely assume that republicans don't think that and therefore aren't hypocrites. This is not to say whether growing corn is actually destructive or not, only that the republican view is at least self-consistent.

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by donarb on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:46AM (#30347090)
> you still need to actually produce something to get that government money

This farmer faked his paperwork and got $1.6 million in illegal farm subsidies.

https://thecounter.org/man-found-guilty-stealing-1-3-million...

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by gruez on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:01AM (#30347294)
I'm not sure what your point is? Obviously they didn't intend for people to defraud the system. It's like asking "how can democrats be for welfare programs for the poor when fraud causes some of that to be diverted to non-poor criminals?"
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by megaman821 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:41AM (#30347918)
Also the US is terrible at transitions. When manufacturing went overseas, we left the factory workers high and dry. We can end the corn subsidies while providing income and support for farmers to transition to other crops, but that starts to look more like traditional welfare.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by MomoXenosaga on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:37AM (#30348804)
That kinda sounds like the planned economy of the USSR. Just produce anything to spruce up the propaganda statistics regardless if the market wants it.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by zzzeek on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:25AM (#30347660)
you could argue those corn farmers are too lazy to figure out a crop that is actually beneficial to society and are comfortable resting in their subsidized bubble.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by gruez on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:34AM (#30347804)
I mean, you could also come up with plenty of other uncharitable explanations for why democrats/republicans endorse certain policies, but that's not helpful if your objective is to understand the other side.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by admax88qqq on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:50AM (#30346342)
It's not welfare it's a subsidy. And it's okay because it's for people we like, rural farmers who vote GOP, rather than people we don't like, inner city populations who vote Democrat.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by dfxm12 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:03AM (#30348254)
Nominally, maybe, but in practice, they're all about corporate welfare, including for big ag.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by pinephoneguy on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:22AM (#30346032)
Moderate libertarians hate welfare programs but their parties rarely win so their candidates often run under the GOP. The GOP just likes the status quo.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by mrfusion on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:01AM (#30345858)
Why doesn’t another state move its primary up? It seems like an easy way to get more influence?
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by walnutclosefarm on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:29AM (#30346853)
There is a law in Iowa that sets the date of our party caucuses earlier than the earliest primary. Our primaries are not first, rather it's the party caucuses here that are held as the first selection event in the Presidential race.

I am a rare Iowan in that I recognize that this system is dumb, and bad for the country. It's great for me - I have had the privilege of hearing in person in a small group setting every Democratic president since Jimmy Carter. I've talked with a couple of them. I can tell you from personal experience that Joe Biden's reputation as a "hands on" or "physical" campaigner was spot on - he embraced me as firmly and as intimately as any man every has (I am very rural looking, white male nearly his age, for the record). But for all that, the circus that is the Iowa caucuses is a stupid way to start the candidate selection process. I'd be happy to see the back of it.

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by smegger001 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:15PM (#30355579)
I wonder what they would do if another state were to set state law specifying the same, or better still one week before Iowa. Would they both just keep moving their primary/caucuses back until it is set immediate after the inauguration of the last election or would the supreme court tell then both to knock it off and set the dates for everyone.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by IgorPartola on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:52AM (#30346375)
The correct solution is to adopt approval voting and not have primaries at all.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by ClayShentrup on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @04:32PM (#30353033)
yep.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by HWR_14 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:25AM (#30348593)
Both major political parties have passed rules that any state the precedes Iowa and New Hampshire will have their number of delegates (aka votes) cut to 1. That is, if they try, their votes literally won't count (except as a tie breaker).
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by nebula8804 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @12:19PM (#30349449)
We just need a big state to try it: if California or Texas tries it that rule will get repealed very quickly.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by HWR_14 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @01:02PM (#30350236)
I don't see why California or Texas trying it would change anything.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by nebula8804 on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:52PM (#30356494)
Either party cannot afford to voluntarily give up so many electoral votes. If I understand it correctly, the # of electoral votes these states have give them enormous sway within the parties.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by HWR_14 on Wednesday February 16, 2022 @12:33AM (#30356707)
That's not how it works. The parties have passed a rule that if California or Texas has one of the first primaries they get changed to 1 electoral vote (well, one delegate, which is the equivalent except there are 10x as many delegates as electors) to decide on the party's nominee. So they would lose what influence they have.

The influence of big states within the party because of electoral votes is pretty small. The state's electoral votes are applied by the citizens of the state. I mean, yeah if you could get 50+% of Texas's voters to credibly promise to vote for the presidential candidate of the party that had an earlier Texas primary they would compete hard for it. But in reality, they're going to vote for the republican nominee. Same logic for California but for the democratic nominee.

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by nebula8804 on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @08:57AM (#30427938)
The thing is that this system can be abused in either direction. To promote the candidate that the party leadership wants or to hijack the law and force an important delegate state to lose their influence.

Imagine if South Carolina was pushed to this one delegate system in 2020. Bernie Sanders was nearly the nominee and South Carolina began his death spiral. If South Carolina was taken out of play by activists in the state, then either the party would have to forgo its own rules or accept that Bernie would have continued his massive momentum coming out of Nevada.

Likewise if on Super Tuesday Buttigieg and Klobachar would not have dropped out at (supposedly) Obama's instance and backed Biden, then Bernie would have emerged much stronger. One way they could have blunted his momentum is if they saw polling early enough that Bernie was going to take a big state like California, we can't rule out the California machine pushing itself to lose the electoral votes in an effort to stop Bernie and then maybe change back its timeline after the election.

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by _dark_matter_ on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:15AM (#30345964)
Race to the bottom. The political parties won't let it happen.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by mrfusion on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @08:19AM (#30345996)
We’ll the bottom would be everyone on the earliest possible day and then no one has an advantage. Seems like a good thing.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by s1artibartfast on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:27AM (#30347691)
I'm not sure that there is any limit on the earliest day. In theory they could be any time after the last one.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by ModernMech on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:20AM (#30346727)
I don't know about the Republicans, but as far as Democrats go it's actually a rule:

  Rule 12 Timing of the Delegate Selection Process 

  No meetings, caucuses, conventions or primaries which constitute the first determining stage in the presidential nomination process (the date of the primary in primary states, and the date of the first tier caucus in caucus states) may be held prior to the first Tuesday in March or after the second Tuesday in June in the calendar year of the national convention. Provided, however, that the Iowa precinct caucuses may be held no earlier than 29 days before the first Tuesday in March; that the New Hampshire primary may be held no earlier than 21 days before the first Tuesday in March; that the Nevada first-tier caucuses may be held no earlier than 10 days before the first Tuesday in March; and that the South Carolina primary may be held no earlier than 3 days before the first Tuesday in March.
https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/2020-Delega...

This is what created "Super Tuesday", which is evidence of a race to the bottom that has gone as far down as it can go. It also shows that 4 states were carved out probably as favors (does anyone know more here?). In order to change this, probably a bunch of people who are being treated favorably now will get upset at losing their privilege, and no one in leadership wants to crack that egg. Seeing as that South Carolina, one of the favored states anointed to hold a primary before before Super Tuesday, played such a decisive role in the nomination of Joe Biden, I think the practice of keeping these states first is going to continue for the foreseeable future.

Jim Clyburn of S. Carolina is widely credited of resuscitating Joe Biden's candidacy after his sad start in IA, NH, and NV. He placed a distant 4th in IA, 5th in NH, and Bernie blew out NV with 40% of the vote. At that point, Clyburn endorsed Biden, and Biden ended up winning SC. Then a bunch of candidates dropped out of the race before Super Tuesday (some who were doing much better than Biden overall) and support coalesced behind Biden.

If anything, the slow roll of IA, NH, SC and NV allows the party to calibrate the primary process. If things start going a way they don't like, they can make quick changes like asking a bunch of candidates to drop out of the race (I'm not saying Bernie would have won had they not done this, I'm just pointing out it was obviously done, and what enabled them to do this was the fact that all primaries are not held on the same day).

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by s1artibartfast on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:36AM (#30347837)
>also shows that 4 states were carved out probably as favors (does anyone know more here?).

Probably not favors but codifying the status quo to get their endorsement on the rule. That said, I agree that it gives some states more power, but isn't completely useless. It allows the party to test how good candidates are at getting out the vote And adds some option for course correction.

Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by gruez on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:13AM (#30346640)
I vaguely remember a state trying that, and getting smacked by the federal government in retaliation.
Re:U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline by donarb on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @09:43AM (#30347035)
The federal government is not responsible for presidential primary elections. It is the parties that are.