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Re:Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things by akomtu on Friday February 11, 2022 @02:50PM (#30306189)
Slavery is the equivalent of cheap oil: it doesn't absolve the nation from the need to build something meaningful with it.
Re:Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things by jjoonathan on Friday February 11, 2022 @03:01PM (#30306315)
Building something meaningful doesn't absolve the sins of its construction.

The Romans were very good at conquering people and levying brutal taxes, but that doesn't add value and we shouldn't pretend that it does. They were also good at civil engineering, keeping the peace, and other economic activities which do add value and we should give them credit for it. I'd love to see a historical economic discussion that tries to tease apart these factors and weigh them against each other.

Re:Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things by 988747 on Friday February 11, 2022 @04:21PM (#30307132)
> levying brutal taxes

One of the reasons why Roman empire was so stable was that Roman taxes were actually lower and simpler than whatever taxes the local kings imposed previously. This makes sense if you think about it: Romans only really cared about Italy, and they didn't have to extract much resources from all the provinces to enrich Italy significantly. Previous rulers typically had only their small kingdom to tax, so they taxed it heavily.

Re:Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things by jjoonathan on Friday February 11, 2022 @04:46PM (#30307396)
Were they?

> Romans only really cared about Italy

Yeah, so they famously instituted for-profit tax collection: "we'll auction off the right to collect what you can!" Are you telling me that the competing individuals who were willing to bid the highest amount for this privilege were less effective at it than the kings who had preceded them?

Historians often talk about Rome's "tenacity" -- the fraction of their male population they were willing to throw into the meat grinder of a failing war machine, the number of people they were willing to nail to trees when they risked their lives to complain about taxes, the lengths they were willing to go to in order to put down a tax rebellion (see: the giant earthen ramp up the walls of Masada) and so on. Rome is often credited with being more tenacious than their adversaries.

It's not impossible that taxes were generally lower, but I tend to suspect there are some serious qualifiers, like "in Italy," or "during peacetime," or "for those who the Romans were trying to make a positive example of."

Re:Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things by Tuna-Fish on Friday February 11, 2022 @04:57PM (#30307498)
The qualifier is "during the Roman Empire". The height of power of the publicani, and the period when they did most of their excesses as tax farmers, was essentially the end of of the Republic (and a few years in the beginning of the Empire). As the Caesars consolidated power and established a centralized buraucracy, they restricted the authority of the publicani.
Re:Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things by zipswitch on Friday February 18, 2022 @01:49PM (#30389547)
There is, naturally, a Roman proverb along the same lines: qui vincit non est victor nisi victus fatebur. It translate s as "The victor is not victorious if the vanquished does not consider himself so."
Re:Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things by Tuna-Fish on Friday February 11, 2022 @04:49PM (#30307432)
... er, eventually.

Rome tried many different kinds of tax policies in it's territories. The relatively light touch they finally ended up was essentially a reaction of first trying a policy so maximally extractive that it could be described as genocidal.

Re:Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things by cracrecry on Friday February 11, 2022 @08:05PM (#30308953)
By that measuring stick, you must have a really bad opinion of the USA because they are what they are from conquering most of their territories and exterminating its native population, and that was done yesterday.

The biggest country in the World, Russia did that expansion in 1500, and Germany wanted to replicate the Americans in WWII.

Is the prosperity of the US independent from having a virgin country with bast resources and no population?

Certainly it is not, (North)Americans could have a big number of children to replace the exterminated native population and exploit its bast resources and automate everything because there were few workers to do the job. In other places of the world automation was more expensive(China, India) than just using workers, so it did not happen.

Population skyrocketing meant a healthy young population and economy to prosper. People got rich killing buffaloes or cutting down millennial forrest or gold(that had been extracted and depleted on other parts of the world for milenia) and not to talk about Industry being financed by(very expensive at the time) sugar and cotton cultivated by slaves in the South.

Re:Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things by tjr225 on Friday February 11, 2022 @09:42PM (#30309435)
> By that measuring stick, you must have a really bad opinion of the USA because they are what they are from conquering most of their territories and exterminating its native population

There have been large movements in the USA directed exactly at this multiple times over the last 3 decades. How would this be remarkable at all if the grandparent felt that way?

Re:Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things by patrec on Friday February 11, 2022 @04:57PM (#30307502)
> The Romans were very good at conquering people and levying brutal taxes, but that doesn't add value and we shouldn't pretend that it does.

How do you think the nice things you seem to enjoy about Rome spread around?