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Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by dotnet00 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:12AM (#30217798)
You think it's ethical for a company to sell everyone seats, allow them to arrange plans around the seat's availability, let them get all the way to being in the plane and then drag them out of the plane just to seat staff?
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by tartoran on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:39AM (#30218425)
If they offered $1000 and an additional seat on the next flight they wouldn’t need to inconvenience anyone, someone would be bound to take the deal. The ordeal that man went through was ridicilous (I think he was a doctor who justifiably needed to get to his practice asap) and this kind of practice needs to be changed.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by dotnet00 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @02:01AM (#30218560)
It seems the incident did lead to a change. DoT rules now prohibit airlines from forcefully removing people after boarding to make room on overbooked flights.

So after boarding their only recourse is to offer increasing compensation until someone gets off.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by tartoran on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:48AM (#30222199)
Great. This solution makes sense and satisfies all parties. Wonder why this wasn’t offered in the first place.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by manigandham on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:14AM (#30217811)
That wasn't the topic. I don't know or care enough about the reason for asking him to vacate his seat, but that is still a request that must be followed.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by dotnet00 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:26AM (#30217913)
That's useless reasoning that can be used to justify any action as long as it's an authority acting on someone 'lesser'. Kind of exactly the issue being discussed here. An airline managed shared no-fly list would only reinforce this broken reasoning.

"I don't know or care enough about the reason for arresting him, but that is still a procedure that must be followed."

"I don't know or care enough about the reason for preventing him from flying, but that is still a procedure that must be followed."

and so on. The reason matters because it determines if the procedure/request is ethical. An unethical procedure shouldn't be allowed to keep existing just because it already exists.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by thegrimmest on Saturday February 05, 2022 @07:32AM (#30220404)
It's like asking someone to leave your house - there doesn't have to be a good reason, an ethical reason, or any reason at all. Generally if someone asks you to leave their property, then you get up and leave. If this creates a breach of contract or other civil dispute, that's exactly what civil courts are for, go use them.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by dotnet00 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @11:05AM (#30222379)
You say that, yet we all know that the change making what happened a violation of DoT rules wouldn't have happened if it weren't for this incident having caused worldwide outrage.

Refusing to leave is exactly what caused the problem to be fixed, taking it to courts would do little more than get the man a half-hearted apology and a bit of compensation.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by thegrimmest on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:38PM (#30224212)
I would hold that the change to DoT rules was fundamentally reactionary, unwarranted, and not rooted in any sort of reasoned argument. The rules change seems to be based in the idea that we simply can't expect people to contain their emotions when they are asked to leave a plane they have already been seated on. I think we should maintain this expectation, and more generally maintain the expectation that people control their emotions and remain calm and reasonable in day-to-day interactions. This would all have been avoided if the fellow just got up and left, as he was told, and as the airline staff were entitled to tell him.

Also, a half-hearted apology and a bit of compensation is all the fellow is entitled to in this situation.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by ww520 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @08:08AM (#30220628)
You cannot ask a paying tenant to leave your house.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by ratww on Saturday February 05, 2022 @11:45AM (#30222890)
It's nowhere like asking someone to leave your house. A plane is not a house.

This is someone that paid for a service, is following all the rules set in contract and is not causing any problem to you. You merely picked on this person at random.

This is like expelling a tenant that didn't do anything wrong and paid the rent because you want to let your cousin sleep for the night.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by thegrimmest on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:41PM (#30224256)
It's more like pulling over at the side of the road and asking a passenger to leave your car. You are indeed quite entitled to do this. I think landlords and tenants are a distinct situation that does not apply to the rest of the business world. There, services can be terminated, or goods not provided, and the the resulting disputes are fundamentally civil.

Also, evicting a tenant so you can occupy the space is pretty much the most legitimate reason there is for eviction.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by ratww on Saturday February 05, 2022 @11:41PM (#30229508)
But still the eviction has to follow due process in virtually every jurisdiction.

And planes are nothing like private cars. An analogy would be Taxis. Taxis accepting the fare but then leaving passengers "at the side of the road" without provocation or reason is also against consumer laws in lots of jurisdictions.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by thegrimmest on Sunday February 06, 2022 @01:44PM (#30235546)
At that time, this was the due process: ask the passenger to leave, and if they refuse, apply force. I'm arguing that this is the appropriate process. And in general I'm arguing for less regulation of how people resolve private disputes over business arraignments.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by qaq on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:23AM (#30217890)
Given the multi-million dollar settlement I am guessing things might not be as simple
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by kelnos on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:15AM (#30218282)
Given that United wasn't the one who dragged him out of his seat and beat him (that was airport security), it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that United should have been liable for this. Most likely United just wanted the lawsuit out of the news, so millions of dollars was cheaper for them than the lost goodwill -- even if they would have ended up winning the suit.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by feupan on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:56AM (#30218535)
Weird, I didn't know the airport security had any saying in bookings, it's almost like a United staff asked them to take care of an "unruly" passenger.

Airport security might have followed orders but those orders couldn't have come by anyone but United.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by qaq on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:32AM (#30218396)
Or they were afraid it would set a precedent that puts this practice into question
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:53AM (#30218116)
People can sue for whatever they want, and settlements from large juries are always a risk assessment, not an admission of wrongdoing.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by opo on Saturday February 05, 2022 @02:33AM (#30218734)
>...not an admission of wrongdoing.

The admission of wrongdoing came from the CEO:

>...Two days after the incident, Munoz issued an additional statement, apologizing and promising that such an incident would never again occur on a United aircraft. He said, "No one should ever be mistreated this way." In an ABC television interview, Munoz was asked, "Do you think [Dao] was at fault in any way?" Munoz responded, "No. He can't be. He was a paying passenger sitting on our seat in our aircraft."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Express_Flight_3411_inc...

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by qaq on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:40AM (#30218432)
A language that puts some conditions in some contract does not mean it can not be successfully challenged in court.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by FredPret on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:54AM (#30218130)
What utter non-logic
[dead]
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by manigandham on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:16AM (#30218287)
The reason for cancelling the ticket is separate from the request to leave the plane. I can talk about the latter without discussing the former, and I've responded civilly to every comment by talking about the fundamental rationale behind private property, public transport, contract rights and refusal to move resulting in an escalated response.

You seem to be creating the very "vile place" that you are complaining about.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by kelnos on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:16AM (#30218289)
> (The kind of arrogance you’ve displayed through this whole thread is why we have post like a few days ago about how HN has become such a vile place lacking civil discourse. Go read the fucking story and then see if you sit there so smugly behind your keyboard advocating violence against passengers)

Oof. Pot, meet kettle.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by tc313 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:47AM (#30218061)
An important element of civil discourse is in limiting conversation to the content of the argument rather than attacking the person making the argument.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by missedthecue on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:32AM (#30217959)
The kind of arrogance you’ve displayed through this whole thread is why we have post like a few days ago about how HN has become such a vile place lacking civil discourse. Go read the fucking story and then see if you sit there so smugly behind your keyboard advocating violence against passengers

Do you hear yourself speak

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by poulsbohemian on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:20AM (#30218310)
Yes I do - several posters attempted to offer new evidence to the gentleman and he doubled-down on his argument rather than acknowledge new information. His argument fundamentally advocated that violence was acceptable despite his acknowledgement that he didn’t actually have any background into the story.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by manigandham on Saturday February 05, 2022 @02:14AM (#30218631)
I already said that the reason for the ticket cancellation and request to leave are separate issues. New information about the former doesn't change the latter. And none of this necessitated your extremely rude response.

> "fundamentally advocated that violence was acceptable"

Fundamentally all authority is based on violence. Actions create consequences and force is the last resolution available. It may be excessive, harmful, destructive, chaotic, and all manner of similar adjectives but it doesn't change the fact that violence is a core component of society and used to enforce all the civility you've come to expect.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by missedthecue on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:08AM (#30221771)
My comment was not whether your rebuke was justified or not, but about your tone. Right after you lament that HN is becoming uncivil you swear and shout pejoratives.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by kelnos on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:13AM (#30218270)
Ethical or not, it's a long-accepted practice. We can argue about whether or not that should be how the world is (I agree it shouldn't be!), but that is how the world is. If you buy plane tickets without understanding that you may end up not being allowed on that plane when it takes off, through no fault of your own, that's on you.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by mypalmike on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:23AM (#30218327)
Bumping prior to boarding is indeed a long accepted practice. Removing someone from a flight after boarding is not. It is counter to the law except in the rare circumstance that the person poses a risk to the flight.

https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer...

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by kube-system on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:51AM (#30218503)
Correct. He shouldn’t have been removed. However, the airlines failure to follow regulatory requirements in this case is not a free pass to trespass or interfere with a flight crew.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by manigandham on Saturday February 05, 2022 @03:08AM (#30218906)
These rules were changed after this incident.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by mypalmike on Sunday February 06, 2022 @12:40PM (#30234806)
Interesting. Do you have a link to the rule change?