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Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by wongarsu on Friday February 04, 2022 @09:19AM (#30207009)
If you have a hand of cards you want to optimize it makes sense to keep discarding and redrawing your worst cards. At the beginning your worst cards are probably below average, so any new replacement is statistically likely to be better. But even when you reach the point where all your cards are above average it can make sense to keep redrawing a small percentage, since that's the only way to get more aces.

Of course teams of employees with emotions and institutional knowledge are a bit more complex than a hand of cards, but that has never stopped bad management strategies.

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by vvvnnnnvvv on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:42PM (#30213713)
That may be the public way of explaining it, but I see it slightly differently. Amazon doesn't like "good intentions", rather it prefers "mechanisms". We all know that managers should put low performers on PIPs, but Amazon doesn't really trust managers' good intentions. It wants to make SURE that low performers are put on PIPs. The mechanism they've selected is an unregretted attrition target. The target represents the number of people they expect to be under performing and only applies to orgs greater than a certain size.

source: recently left Amazon as SDM

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by zelos on Friday February 04, 2022 @09:31AM (#30207153)
I kind of see that, but it completely ignores the cost of hiring (financial and in lost productivity in the team that has to onboard the new hire) and the loss of knowledge and experience from firing as well.
Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by wpietri on Friday February 04, 2022 @09:56AM (#30207494)
For sure. It's a good example of POSIWID: The Purpose Of the System Is What It Does. If the system ignores things like financial costs and productivity, then the purpose of the system is something else.

What it is good for in my view is making managers look and feel tough and establishing a culture of fear that is so necessary for hierarchical power structures. Power/status hierarchies are a common trait for most primates. So my shorthand for this sort of it-doesn't-make-sense situation is, "Primates gonna prime."

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by vintermann on Friday February 04, 2022 @11:46AM (#30209186)
Amazon Primate
Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by mtoddsmith on Friday February 04, 2022 @02:08PM (#30211430)
I will never unsee this.
Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by bathtub365 on Friday February 04, 2022 @09:41AM (#30207295)
That’s why you hire to fire. Then your shortest tenure employee is the one you know you’ll be terminating and minimal knowledge is lost. The only downside is that it’s disgusting, soulless behaviour.
Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by tsol on Friday February 04, 2022 @12:50PM (#30210096)
Also a huge waste of time, money, and other resources.
Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by lokar on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:52PM (#30213823)
Many companies (not just Amazon) believe that employees at the low end of the curve are not simply contributing less, they see them as being actively negative. This is not just about their individual output, quality, etc, it's the impact on the overall org, culture and expectations.

Not defending, just explaining.

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by schwarzmx on Friday February 04, 2022 @01:19PM (#30210758)
My impression as a former SDE was that it's already accounted for. Hoards of new hires from college join each year and the hiring process is getting cheaper for that pipeline. I think they know that while increasing throughput in the hiring pipeline they're also letting in some low performers, so PIP is one mechanism to shed some weight.
Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by wongarsu on Friday February 04, 2022 @09:48AM (#30207381)
I could imagine Amazon finding some success with that strategy for their fulfillment workers (where those costs are low and team work isn't required), leading someone to mindlessly apply the same strategy everywhere else.
Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by anonymous8979 on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:32PM (#30213558)
I've been an SDE at Amazon for 8 years. What I've noticed over time is that the quality of hires and employees has gone down. I think the stack ranking is partly responsible for it, because it couldn't evaluate engineers in absolute measures, but only relatively.

This is where your cards analogy falls through, in a deck of cards, you know that there are better cards you don't have in your hand, you know exactly what your Jack is worth in absolute terms.

At Amazon, you can have a Royal Flush, and because of stack ranking decide to discard your 10, and if you know your poker, that makes you go from the best hand to one of the worse.

The issue is you wouldn't know your 10 at Amazon was a great engineer and a key asset to your team, and that all replacement candidates are going to be worse, except now you've lost precious time, ramp up, and moral, as well as a great employee.

For a smaller company, it might make sense as you're building a core team and might need to go through a few people before you find a set of good ones, but where Amazon is now, at its size, over time, it has lost engineers that in industry wide averages were above it, and it has created a reputation that hurts it from attracting them back or other engineer's above the industry's average.

Due to this, Amazon is becoming a second pick. Good engineers will pick Netflix, Google, Microsoft, and even sometimes Facebook (due to their higher comp) over Amazon. And since all these companies hiring process are the same, it's common that someone who can pass the Amazon interview can pass one of those other ones as well. In fact, almost 70% of everyone I've seen be released from a PIP went to work at one of the other big tech companies.

The other big problem is that the stack ranking works like American reality TV competitions. It doesn't matter if you've excelled year over year, if you have one bad year, where for whatever reason you get identified as a low performer, you'll get PIPed. In my experience that's often contextual, a new manager or you look like a bad performer because the business and leadership couldn't figure out good projects for you to work on and own that year, or they themselves couldn't get their act together and you're a scape goat. Other people on your team might have performed better simply out of luck of having been assigned better projects.

Amazon used to get away with simply finding the best talent, but in my experience there, that's now backfiring, and instead of growing the best talent, their quest to find it is turning into a system that recruits more and more mediocre talent as time goes on.

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by vvvnnnnvvv on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:48PM (#30213780)
I recently left Amazon, and I don't think the stack ranking is to blame for the reduction in talent (which I also noticed).

Amazon doesn't pay top dollar for engineers, and the delta between Amazon and other companies is growing every year. (The compensation ends up being competitive when you take into account stock growth, but the new hire offers are not attractive.) And it's a very results-driven, stressful work environment. The effect of that is that people who get better offers go elsewhere, both new hires and existing employees. Those who are left either don't feel like interviewing or interviewed but didn't like their other options.

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by anonymous8979 on Friday February 04, 2022 @06:51PM (#30215224)
The comp might be part of it as well, but at the end of the day, the only reason the bar is lowering is because Amazon is losing their good talent and failing to attract more of it, while also failing to have processes that create good talent (as in, if you weren't already great when coming in, Amazon won't grow you, but just spit you out).

Yes comp could help to attract better talent, that's what Facebook is doing. But of the about 150 interviews I've conducted for Amazon, 90% of almost all candidates always ask me: "So is it really as bad as they say working here? With how they treat you?"

I think that's a pretty good indicator that the reputation is just tarnished, and I wouldn't be surprised that that's having a sizable effect on the decrease of talent.

The other thing is, yes maybe some real bad apples leave from a PIP, but the whole culture around it, the stress, the feeling everyone has that they constantly have to fight for trust and respect, that is also a cause for a lot of the really good engineers and high performer to leave as well, of their own, no PIP involved, but it's the same root cause for why they leave.

I see so many good ones, ranking high every year, and after 3 to 5 years say: Well I had enough of this BS, too much hassle always playing the game. If anything, that's the biggest issue.

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by wing-_-nuts on Friday February 04, 2022 @11:08PM (#30217262)
>But of the about 150 interviews I've conducted for Amazon, 90% of almost all candidates always ask me: "So is it really as bad as they say working here?

Every time an AMZ recruiter tries to poach me from my current job, I consider replying back with links to the NYT article, the URA article, and various anecdotes from friends that worked there. Ending with a question of 'Why in god's name would I work for your company?!'

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by ctvo on Friday February 04, 2022 @05:05PM (#30213989)
I also used to worked at Amazon.

There are elements of the culture I miss. The focus on writing was great. Shipping things quickly that impact a lot of people is nice. It made up for a lot of the deficiencies, and it isn't universal (cough Google). Amazon tends to make the right tradeoffs with tech choices to enable this, not always, but most of the time.

I enjoyed working with principal and senior engineers at Amazon. I didn't meet a single PE that I didn't thoroughly respect and enjoy talking with. I miss the internal PE talks, and I wish they'd make them public.

Compensation is deeply personal, but once I broke 400k, I really didn't care too much one way or another, and Amazon's total compensation was never significantly less than competitors. It was about the work, impact, and people.

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by abeppu on Friday February 04, 2022 @02:48PM (#30211975)
> If you have a hand of cards you want to optimize it makes sense to keep discarding and redrawing your worst cards.

But this makes sense _in a game with a fixed hand size_. But a company's staff should grow over time. So shouldn't one have an ROI-based criteria where you want each team member to help grow generate meaningfully more revenue than they cost to employ. If my "lowest" performing team members still make meaningfully more money than they cost to employ, they still increase my ability to hire more.

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by pythonaut_16 on Friday February 04, 2022 @03:22PM (#30212518)
Isn't that the point of the end of that comment?
Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by abeppu on Friday February 04, 2022 @03:47PM (#30212942)
> Of course teams of employees with emotions and institutional knowledge are a bit more complex than a hand of cards, but that has never stopped bad management strategies.

This acknowledges that the "optimizing a hand of cards" analogy leaves out factors -- which is true.

My point is, even if there were no emotions or institutional knowledge, even if I had a "staff" of AI agents or robots whose "knowledge" could be fluidly copy-pasted, the "optimizing a hand of cards" analogy is poor, because a robot that makes money is worth keeping even if there are better robots out there. An army of low-but-positive ROI robots can help me buy a high ROI robot.

Re:Amazon Pip Horror Story by mateo411 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:49PM (#30223615)
It's an interesting analogy, but employees aren't cards. One important difference is that employees get better over time, assuming there is a decent culture of communication and mentorship.

Maybe you hired a 7 of clubs, but given time they can gain institutional knowledge and improve their skillset to become a Jack of Spades.

I'm happy there are companies that set attrition metrics as a KPI, it makes it easier for me to hire and build out a technical team for my company.