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Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by dmitriid on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:49PM (#30184546)
> Autopilot is a tool. You can miss use it, sure. But if you care about safety it's hard to match with what they offer.

1. It's not autopilot, by any measurable criteria

2. As the adjusted data clearl shows, it's not that hard to match it. And since you mention Volvo, they definitely match it. They are honest enough though not to call it "autopilot", or "full safe driving" or pin the plame for its failures on the driver.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by ummonk on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:56PM (#30184621)
Yup. Autopilot on aircraft is very different because pilots don't have to be ready to take over on a moment's notice.

Of course they have to be monitoring the flight but they can be generally assured that the autopilot won't decide to just fly into a mountain with only fractions of a second for the pilots to intervene.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by laen on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:27PM (#30184971)
There are moments a pilot has seconds to react and disengage autopilot.

Example: Traffic Resolution advisories require a 5 second reaction time and 2.5 seconds for any follow-on reactions. This reaction time includes the time to disengage autopilot and also put the aircraft into a climb-or-dive. Studies show that a situationally aware pilot takes at least 2 seconds to start the reaction, and another second to achieve the proper climb/descent. There are other times on e.g. approach, or ground collision warnings with even narrower margins for disengaging autopilot.

Pilots generally know when they need to be hyper-aware with autopilot and so do competent Tesla drivers. If there are issues with the name "autopilot" for Tesla, the same argument needs to be made for aircraft manufacturers.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by JaimeThompson on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:57PM (#30185365)
> If there are issues with the name "autopilot" for Tesla, the same argument needs to be made for aircraft manufacturers.

If a drivers license required as much training as a pilots license then you might have a point.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:27PM (#30188677)
"Example: Traffic Resolution advisories require a 5 second reaction time"

When the Autopilot swerves into a concrete wall for no reason, you will have 0.5 seconds left to live. Rwacting in the last 0.1 secons bwf9re collision will not save you - you must react in like 200ms.

It is physically impossible to react in time to some autopilot mistakes, stop defending this idiocy.

https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-drivers-autopilot-swerve...

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by Dylan16807 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @12:46AM (#30189131)
The problem is bad enough that it killed someone; you don't need to use exaggerated made-up numbers.

In the example video the car starts turning at 40 seconds and passes the barrier at 47 seconds.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by ClumsyPilot on Thursday February 03, 2022 @09:26AM (#30192772)
Surely you can see how you might have less than a second to react if Autopilot swerves into the oncoming traffik? I can't search all tesla accidents by 'least time to react'
Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by Dylan16807 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:18PM (#30196331)
If they actually do that, it could be a problem, but I'm not convinced that's a failure case that we need to worry much about.
Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by dmitriid on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:24PM (#30185732)
> If there are issues with the name "autopilot" for Tesla, the same argument needs to be made for aircraft manufacturers.

Pilots require extensive training (an re-training). The must meet certain criteria to even fly certain types of plains. And they have to go through additional training if they have to switch planes (going from Airbus to Boeing for example).

So, if we're making "teh same argument" for Tesla, then Tesla needs all that to call its system an autopilot.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by ummonk on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:19PM (#30186433)
5 seconds (or the 2 seconds that pilots require) is a lot more time than you’re afforded to take action while driving a Tesla in autopilot. And when driving the Tesla you often won’t get a clear warning signaling that you have to take over and do something - it can fail silently and swerve straight into an obstacle.
Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by kaba0 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:01AM (#30189893)
The difference is that you can’t be a pilot with even as little physical impairment as a crooked nose and it takes extensive years to get a license, while every rich 18 years old can sleep behind a tesla’s wheel…
Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by Someone on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:01PM (#30185424)
A sailboat autopilot is even simpler. The simplest ones maintain compass direction, but don’t compensate for drift due to water currents or side winds, or for the difference between magnetic and true north.

An IMO important difference with pilots is that pilots are professionals that get trained and periodically retrained on how specific planes and their autopilots work.

Tesla drivers, on the other hand, hear Tesla’s at times optimistic marketing, and may just learn how to switch autopilot on and off without understanding when to use it and when not to use it.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by dzader on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:04PM (#30184730)
"Boeing instructed pilots to take corrective action in case of a malfunction, when the airplane would enter a series of automated nosedives. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX_groundings

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by jgeada on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:20PM (#30185662)
And that is why the whole 737 Max fleet got grounded and none of those planes were allowed to be operational until Boeing put in place a fix for the problem.

And most airlines ended up cancelling pending orders for the 737 Max and switched to a different brand that didn't play nearly as fast and loose with safety.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by ummonk on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:09PM (#30184793)
Indeed, Tesla's autopilot behaves a lot more like MCAS than like an airplane autopilot.
Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by sokoloff on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:57PM (#30184636)
> It's not autopilot, by any measurable criteria

It does seem quite comparable in capabilities to the actual autopilot in aircraft. And that’s what’s confusing to people; most don’t realize that an autopilot is a control used by a driver or pilot to reduce their workload. (As a pilot, I am still logging flight time as the “sole manipulator of controls” during the time the autopilot is engaged.)

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by watwut on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:10PM (#30184798)
And that "confusion" was created intentionally by Tesla. So that it is easy to pretend it was not deliberately pretending higher capabilities while giving yourself option to pretend you are not.

You know like that claim about human being there just because of pesky regulations and laws. Not because human would be needed.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by ummonk on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:14PM (#30184842)
The kind of environment that a car is in (and the kind of monitoring required by the driver) is much more akin to autoland than autopilot.
Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by mellavora on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:23AM (#30190034)
>It does seem quite comparable in capabilities to the actual autopilot in aircraft.

including the system's assumption that the operator of the vehicle is doing so as a trained professional in that skill, including the extensive continuous training requirements required to maintain professional-level expertise?

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by maxdo on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:13PM (#30184829)
The author is projecting his assumptions based on 400 people questioned. Is it fair.

Most Cars volvo produced is not as safe simply because Volvo is still making most of the money on Gasoline car, and they are less safe vs electric. Do we need to create a screaming article "Vovlo is deliberately making money on old tech that kills people"? Again volvo is a premium brand, so they don't want to invest more in EV to make your car more safe. They also promote hybrid Cars that has highest chances to catch on fire compares to EV and regular ICE cars.

But yeah, naming of an optional feature is so much more important compares to real tech, crash tests etc. That's a logic media is trying to put in our head. Don't think.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by dmitriid on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:18PM (#30185622)
> Most Cars volvo produced is not as safe simply because Volvo is still making most of the money on Gasoline car

That's... quite a leap.

> Do we need to create a screaming article "Vovlo is deliberately making money on old tech that kills people"?

That would be just that: a screaming article.

> so they don't want to invest more in EV to make your car more safe.

Ah, yes. Because the only way to make a car safe is to make it electric.

1. I was responding to the ridiculous claim of "if you care about safety it's hard to match with what Tesla offers".

This claim is bullshit, and Volvo easily matches what Tesla offers when it comes to car safety

2. Volvo XC40 Recharge, C40 Recharge are the cars that exist, but you chose to ignore them

> Naming of an optional feature is so much more important compares to real tech, crash tests etc.

I tried to parse this sentense, and I couldn't. Are you saying that Volvo doesn't do real tech, or doesn't do crash tests etc.? If so, are you delusional?

BTW, here's Volvo's purpose-built crash-test laboratory: https://www.media.volvocars.com/se/sv-se/media/videos/154740...

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by oblio on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:17PM (#30184876)
> Again volvo is a premium brand, so they don't want to invest more in EV to make your car more safe.

Dude, really?

https://group.volvocars.com/company/innovation/electrificati...

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by maxdo on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:25PM (#30184963)
Volvo's plans all in the future, it's just a commitment. today is there in 2025, tomorrow web designer put another beautiful article with 2030. Gasoline cars is less safe to the same car with the same set of airbags just because of It's physics e.g. lower center of gravity, no engine in the front that can kill you during forward collision, battery at the bottom serve as a protection layer during other type of crashes.

In fact tesla is about to release structural batteries cars, that will use battery as part of the cars body, makes it even more safe. Model Y with structural pack will be out in March 2022.

Volvo at this moment promoting hybrids and ICE that doesn't have this features, because it's bloody business. And money is money.

Just compare real actions of Volvo who claim one of the safest brand and Tesla.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by oblio on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:54PM (#30185327)
Did you even read the article I linked? I have friends that have the XC40 Recharge...

> In fact tesla is about to release structural batteries cars, that will use battery as part of the cars body, makes it even more safe. Model Y with structural pack will be out in March 2022.

I'll believe that when I see it. How's the Tesla Semi release going? Especially since structural batteries are still an active research topic that actual researchers think will be in mass production in 5 years or more.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by kaba0 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:07AM (#30189924)
> battery at the bottom serve as a protection layer during other type of crashes.

And it can nicely burst into flames that burn for hours on, without any easy way to put it out. I sure as hell would rather have a broken arm over being burnt alive in a steel frame.

Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by ummonk on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:15PM (#30184861)
What makes you say gasoline cars are much less safe than electric?
Re:Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe t... by nikau on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:44AM (#30190162)
Hollywood movie explosions