News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by anonporridge on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:34PM (#30170520)
Land lords still exist in a competitive market and can't arbitrarily raise rents without collusion.

One way to alleviate this problem is to have a harsher tax on vacant properties to punish using housing as a store of value and creating artificial scarcity in the market, e.g. like how the DeBeers corporation made diamonds artificially scarce and scammed the world for the past century selling a shiny rock.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by rthomas6 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @06:31PM (#30171278)
The thought-out version of this is called Georgism. It proposes a (close to) 100% tax on the unimproved value of land. Economists agree the tax can't be passed on to renters, for reasons I can't articulate.

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progr...

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by dnautics on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @07:10PM (#30171692)
How do you define and evaluate unimproved value?
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by BoiledCabbage on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:24PM (#30172284)
I'm assuming by that they mean the value of the land.

And if it's done similar to an appraisal they see what market price is for a sale (which combines the value of the building + land). Then they can estimate how much it would cost to rebuild that building if it were completely destroyed. That's the value of the improvements. The remainder is the amount someone implicitly paid for the land.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by dnautics on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:33PM (#30172345)
This is not great because suppose it cost relatively little to physically build a house but you sold it for a huge amount because it's in some chic architectural style that hasn't arrived yet in this city. So your house was in a crazy seller market and unexpectedly sold for crazy tons. Now you are being seriously penalized for your boldness.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by BoiledCabbage on Thursday February 03, 2022 @12:30AM (#30189045)
And what are we talking about 0.0001% of all homes ever built? Even less?

Someone can always come up with a contrived example to find a short coming in a rule or law. That doesn't make the law not sound or wise.

"Speeding shouldn't be illegal. What if there is a tornado behind you and you need to rush to get away from it, but you go faster than the speed limit to save your life? See, we can't have laws for speeding."

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by rthomas6 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:50PM (#30172487)
No, because the tax is only on the price someone would pay for the lot.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by dnautics on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:49PM (#30173022)
Restating the definition does not magically conjure a sensible strategy for arriving at that value.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by rthomas6 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @08:43AM (#30177357)
So far, our comments have boiled down to "Yes you can assess unimproved value of improved land", and "No, you can't, there is no way to get that number separate from the value of improvements."

So I'm going to try to say something different.

1. Here is the article that convinces me it is very possible to assess land separate from improvements. It details several strategies for doing so. Also properties are assessed in these ways already in many places. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-par...

2. Accuracy of assessment does not need to be super high for this idea to work. You just need an assessment with the intent of assessing unimproved land. The tax does not need to be literally 100% of unimproved land value, it just has to be a high percentage. Let's say there is a +/- 30% accuracy of unimproved land value assessment. We can have a 70% tax on that assessed value. Some people would in actuality be taxed at 97.5% of land value, and some people at 52.5% of land value. Perhaps the unfairness of this discrepancy is a true downside. However, one could argue the same about property taxes now.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by deelowe on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @07:16PM (#30171741)
You can’t and that’s why such a program is popular with politicians.

The bigger issue is with vacant properties being used as cash stores.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by hpkuarg on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @07:25PM (#30171818)
> You can't

Sure you can. Unimproved value of the land is simply the value of the lot as a whole minus the value of building that sits atop (well, improvements aren't always buildings, but that's a simple example). You can approximate it by comparing it against the transaction prices of nearby lots that aren't improved, or by taking the construction cost out of the purchase price of the lot.

> is popular with politicians

Land value tax in general isn't that popular around the world, and Henry George's version of it, where all tax is replaced with just a land value tax, even less so. As far as I'm aware, there is literally no jurisdiction in the world whose sole tax revenue is from LVT. Economists and idealists like land value tax; politicians, who derive a lot of power from the wealthy landowning class (who in turn would be the most hurt by LVT), not so much.

> The bigger issue is with vacant properties being used as cash stores.

Land value tax would be an excellent way to curb real estate speculation.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by dnautics on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @07:40PM (#30171957)
So a unit that abuts the el should have the same per acre value as a unit a block and a half away?
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by zip1234 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:38PM (#30172389)
Clearly you need comps to figure it out. It is certainly possible especially in the data driven world we have today.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by dnautics on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:41PM (#30172402)
How did that work out for Zillow?
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by rthomas6 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:51PM (#30172496)
What would the unit cost if it were an empty lot? That is the tax.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by dnautics on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:46PM (#30172999)
Until you get the capability of temporarily creating a parallel universe and rolling it back, It's an unanswerable question, that's the point. Also you are confusing cost for price.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by rthomas6 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @08:50AM (#30177441)
Denmark must be capable of creating parallel universes then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Denmark#Land_value...

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by alistairSH on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:45AM (#30175560)
That’s no more true under LVT than it is today.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by davidw on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:36PM (#30170553)
> Land lords still exist in a competitive market and can't arbitrarily raise rents without collusion.

Well...kind of. It's pretty bad in a lot of places. There aren't enough homes in the places people want to live.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by anonporridge on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:40PM (#30170600)
There's a delicate balance of property owners using their power to prevent new construction and densification in an attempt to keep their property values high by preventing competition and going too far where you destroy your local economy because the people who actually do the work can't afford to live there.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @06:54PM (#30171547)
This is the same problem as with overfishing.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by woah on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @06:01PM (#30170859)
Huh?
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by davidw on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @06:15PM (#30171049)
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/585765/golden-gates... is a pretty good look at what's going on.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by zip1234 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:39PM (#30172394)
See: California housing crisis today.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by jimbob45 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @06:52PM (#30171528)
What good is it to build rental properties that will only be used for AirBNB? You’ve ruined even more of the environment just to enrich a landlord.

It has nothing to do with supply - there are more houses now than can be occupied in the US. It has everything to do with misusing the supply we have.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by zip1234 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:42PM (#30172412)
It is everything to do with supply. Location. Location. Location. People want to live in certain places. If there isn't enough housing there, prices go up. Building lots of housing in small places is not bad for the environment. It is much better for the environment than sprawl.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by davidw on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @07:54PM (#30172085)
Vacant housing in Cyanide Springs, Oklahoma is useless to people who want to be near jobs in Palo Alto.

It has everything to do with the supply of housing and how it's been severely constrained over the years.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by jimbob45 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:29PM (#30172318)
And what about when you’ve exhausted every square inch of land to shove more housing on? Then the city isn’t worth anything to anyone and you move on to the next city to ruin.

At some point, enough is enough and you have to accept that there’s no room for more housing without ruining the city. You could focus on reclaiming AirBNBs and vacant housing and you might be able to make a dent in the problem.

Just announce that your city is full and tell everyone to move on. Ruining the city will make landlords money and everyone unhappy.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by lmm on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:41PM (#30172405)
> And what about when you’ve exhausted every square inch of land to shove more housing on? Then the city isn’t worth anything to anyone and you move on to the next city to ruin.

So Manhattan isn't worth anything to anyone? Funny, I thought it was one of the most valuable and productive places in the country and there were still swarms of people wanting to live there.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by davidw on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:51PM (#30172493)
The city I lived in, in Italy has like twice as many people as the place I live in the US, in a slightly smaller footprint.

This is accomplished by some clever technology the Italians use: they are able to stack dwelling units on top of one another.

In many ways, it was a more pleasant place to live, since I could walk or bike to so many places.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by jimbob45 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @11:26PM (#30173695)
I consider high-density housing to be a separate conversation. I entirely agree that high-density housing should be encouraged and would largely solve this issue (assuming apartments can't rent out as AirBNBs like they do so frequently now). However, I don't want "we need more supply" to justify building more housing when we have enough developed land as-is to build high-density housing with ease.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by dv_dt on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:07PM (#30172164)
They don't need to collude, they just need a public price signal - which advertised rent prices signal. As a landlord, it's something like a prisoners dilemma, only there is a much lower disincentive for breaking away to raise your price.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by keyboardCowBoy on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @09:01PM (#30172585)
Landlords in collusion? What kind of landlords, like mom and pop? My small apartment complex raised my rent 25%. Is this collusion?
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by jollybean on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:56PM (#30170808)
"can't arbitrarily raise rents without collusion."

???

There's no need for 'collusion' - term is 'inflation' - which will 100% happen when we start printing money at that scale.

It's unavoidable, almost by definition.

Housing costs are already skyrocketing and this is moving into rents already, at least largely in part because of of massive Fed Stimulus. In the short run it might be better to just give some cheques to people, but not over any period of time.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @07:23PM (#30171801)
"term is 'inflation' - which will 100% happen when we start printing money at that scale."

So you get 0% inflation when we give money to the rich and bail out the banks, but as soon and you give a hobo $50 the entire economy crumbles and inflation spikes, right? Very conveneint ideology

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by jollybean on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @01:15PM (#30181538)
I didn't remotely imply any of that.

You fabricated a bunch of ideas which have nothing to do with what I said.

'Very convenient fabrication'.

--> If you put a lot more dollars into the real economy by direct distribution, then rents will go up via systematic collusion. Most of that money handed out will be captured by landlords.

That has nothing to do with with what may or may not happen if you concentrate money in the financial sector via whatever means.

Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by usefulcat on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:23PM (#30172281)
If you give a lot of money to the rich, I would expect to see inflation in the stock market. Coincidentally, the stock market has far, far outpaced inflation for probably at least 20 years now.
Re:America’s Covid job-saving programme gave most of its cas... by j_walter on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @06:05PM (#30170928)
Not to mention the rents going up to make up the lost money for all those who didn't pay rent the last 2 years.