News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by SkipperCat on Sunday January 30, 2022 @06:59PM (#30142648)
I truly hope that at some point, the pain brought upon the American low wage labor market will re-ignite unions. If it doesn't we are heading to a dual class dystopian future.

The Reddit r/antiwork has been getting traction (even with the Fox News debacle) and I'm seeing more and more people talk about wage inequality amongst a lot more social classes than I have in the past decade. Fingers crossed history arcs towards economic equality.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by creakingstairs on Sunday January 30, 2022 @08:02PM (#30143148)
Even with wage inequality fixed, we would still be heading to a dual class dystopian future. The rate of capital return is running off and even those with "good" income will struggle to keep up with people starting their life with family wealth.

It's happening now. Specialists around me can't find an affordable house even with their relatively high salary unless their parents can help with their initial deposits for a mortgage and ,at least for my country, it's looking to get worse with no capital gains tax :^)

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by greiskul on Sunday January 30, 2022 @10:16PM (#30144068)
One thing that can hopefully change that, is the move to remote work where that is possible. It allows high income earners to move to lower cost of living areas (or never leave them to begin with), removing the power that landlords of existing high jobs areas have purely because of pre existing capital, and potentially help revitalize areas that were in downturns before.

I know that the only reason I left my hometown is because of higher paying jobs in other cities/countries. If I could make what I make here, while living there, I would probably go back so I could be closer to my family, plus have my taxes help my hometown and country, instead of some other country.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by UnpossibleJim on Sunday January 30, 2022 @10:37PM (#30144175)
I enjoy working remotely and I hope it lasts, but I have to admit a large part of me does worry that it makes my job easier to outsource. If some sort of controls aren't put on companies, I don't know how we can stop massive outsourcing of the white collar jobs, just like what occurred in the manufacturing sector - except with less infrastructure to move.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by noduerme on Monday January 31, 2022 @04:57AM (#30146347)
I've spent the last 20 years working remotely, and 10 of them traveling/living in cities, towns and villages in South America, Europe and Asia. I've been happy to see talented locals get better jobs working internationally and boost their incomes. I've never once been concerned with being displaced by some tidal wave of offshore workers. Here's why:

* You, as a native English speaker, familiar with American business culture and someone with years of experience in the field are always going to be paid an order of magnitude more than someone just learning the ropes.

* You can, if you want, outsource your tasks to other people wherever you are.

* You understand that this luck, this privilege, is not going to last forever, because ultimately these jobs will equalize out around the world. And it's right and fair that they should. So you take the advantage you have now and you parlay it into securing something for your future.

The inequality between an American who can live like a king on $200k a year working remotely in a village in Brazil, and a local kid who's learning Javascript there and making $1k a month, is going to even itself out. And that's a good thing for efficiency, equality, and the global economy as a whole. All you have to do is be on the right side of it, ride the wave while it lasts, pass on some knowledge, and by the time they're fantastic at taking your job over you'll be 20 years ahead all over again. There's no reason to feel insecure or guilty about it. The global south is not behind America because America is trying to restrict education there. America does plenty of damage to its own educational system, but it needs skilled workers abroad. The global south is behind America because it hasn't fully shifted from economies of community to economies of scale. That's a multi-generational change. Not to be blunt, but it's plenty of time to become an owner rather than a worker.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by wizzwizz4 on Monday January 31, 2022 @12:27AM (#30144855)
All jobs have creative and procedural elements. The procedural elements can be indefinitely outsourced, and eventually automated. The creative parts… well, they're hard to measure. Companies that outsource procedural elements of a job and discard creative elements will slowly fail, unless they have sufficiently-large monopolies that it barely matters what actually goes on inside the company.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by thePostFuturist on Monday January 31, 2022 @12:32AM (#30144900)
There are language, timezone, and legal (contract and IP enforcement) barriers to completely outsource a core engineering team. Modules, such as QA, however, are up for grabs even today.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by krageon on Monday January 31, 2022 @07:57AM (#30147409)
Outsourcing for knowledge jobs is currently a giant pile of disasters (as in, not one time have I seen folks happy with the result). Given that this is the case, I wouldn't worry too much about outsourcing as a general trend.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday January 31, 2022 @04:50AM (#30146300)
> It allows high income earners to move to lower cost of living areas (or never leave them to begin with)

But the algorithms are already compensating for that. Many companies are paying “location differential” salaries. It will probably result in a new form of outsourcing.

The “good” news, however, is that it won’t last. Many formerly affordable areas are already seeing gentrification and median income jumps, as a result, so they are being flooded with yuppies, and driving out the lifelong residents. I’m watching that happen to Brooklyn, in New York. I know that it is almost catastrophic, in San Francisco. I’ve seen the “Google buses,” on 101.

I’m hoping that unions make a comeback, but that’s a damoclean sword; as the American system is highly adversarial, and can be corrupted fairly easily.

It’s also becoming almost impossible to get jobs, unless you jump through crazy hoops, and don’t get me started on the silly whiteboard tests. It’s resulting in things like “leetcode bootcamps,” and consultants, that will help you to “optimize” your CV for scanning algos.

Background checks are almost certain to find something wrong; especially in this age of social media. I remember, a few years ago, when a teacher was fired, because she posted a Facebook picture of herself on vacation, with a drink in her hand[0], and there’s a prominent Canadian psychologist, permanently barred from the US, because he wrote an article, where he mentioned taking LSD, while in college, in the 1960s[1].

Also, politicians almost always have something in their past, that can be used in “oppo research.”

[0] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354515/Teacher-sac...

[1] https://www.wired.com/2007/04/canadian-psycho/

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by bryanrasmussen on Monday January 31, 2022 @05:10AM (#30146435)
>But the algorithms are already compensating for that. Many companies are paying “location differential” salaries. It will probably result in a new form of outsourcing.

so, combined services for remote workers -

maintain fake address in high cost of living area, providing phone service with rerouting of calls to your real number, providing vpn service so you have an ip address from that high cost of living area.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by creakingstairs on Sunday January 30, 2022 @11:26PM (#30144479)
Yeah we’ve actually moved to a new country to experiment with the idea of remote working in lower COL area. But it sucks to think that we may not be able to live in the area we grew up in if we want to go back.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by closeparen on Sunday January 30, 2022 @11:06PM (#30144343)
As software engineers we are wage inequality. What steps have you taken to reduce your wages towards the median? Obviously you would not make the world an even more unequal place by accepting a raise, right?

Just for some context, the median personal income is $36k, while the median software engineer makes $110k. There are about 1.8 million of us. So by each sending back (to our employers or the Treasury) $74k, we could reduce wage inequality by $133 billion. Not too shabby!

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by brundolf on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:01AM (#30145637)
That's an absurd and bad-faith reframing of what it means to take issue with inequality. Voluntarily taking a salary cut with no other stipulation would not help lower-income workers; the surplus would go straight into shareholders' pockets. Unless you're the CEO, and have the authority (and the will) to actually redistribute those funds, it would be comically pointless martyrdom (and I think you know that).

So no, I don't take steps to "reduce my wages" towards the median. But I do make donations to people who are trying to improve the status quo, and I do support unions and other efforts at real power-rebalancing, even if they mean a pay cut for myself one day, because that would be for the sake of an actual positive impact.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by closeparen on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @01:38PM (#30167045)
Working class people need healthcare. You need healthcare according to how sick you are, not according to how large the professional-managerial class is or how its incomes are trending.

Inequality is a very weird frame for the well-being of a society or its less fortunate. The absurdity of sending back your paycheck being an “improvement” is just one element. We can have rising living standards across the board & call it a catastrophe because those at the top are rising faster. Or we can have a collapse, and say that your schadenfreude at your neighbor’s demise makes you whole. The whole model is absurd.

Not to mention the carelessness between income and wealth. Moving income from high wage earners to the portfolios of shareholders is actually good for income and wage equality. It amplifies wealth inequality, but that gets a lot less play since we mainly tax wages.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by brundolf on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @07:57PM (#30172103)
What you're missing is that wealth - particularly extreme wealth - isn't just about quality of living, it's about power. That's (a major reason) why relative wealth matters in a society: the extremely wealthy can reshape not just their personal lives, but the entire society around them, to suit their preferences. The extremely wealthy don't have to care if a new public policy is bad for the commons (any given commons; the natural environment, public education, civil freedoms, etc), because they can always just buy their way out of the consequences. Nearly the entire society underneath them can be left to rot, and as long as there's enough of a husk left that their wealth still matters, they don't have to care. They can even make it decay on purpose if it serves to deepen their moat of power.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by closeparen on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @08:31PM (#30187167)
At the level of "extreme wealth" where you own a newspaper or bankroll a think tank, you're not working for wages, and you're not realizing a dollar more in taxable income than necessary. These people really aren't part of income inequality, or reached by income tax. I assume you're not talking about them.

The professional-managerial class do wield considerably more power than the working class. I don't think that's because they have money, though. I think it's because the state is a large organization. People with the skills to run a state will rarely want for white-collar employment. People who influence bureaucracies for a living will also be pretty good at getting what they want from the state.

Imagine. Who's going to win a national electoral campaign, who couldn't land a job in marketing?

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by moritonal on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:57AM (#30145970)
This feels so much like a pointy haired boss wrote this.

"See, if you simply choose to send back half your salary to me there'll be less income-inequality between you and the janitor! Please ignore my golden throne."

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by trabant00 on Monday January 31, 2022 @04:40AM (#30146223)
This plays right into the class warfare between low and middle class that the hides the real problem - tax avoidance by the ultra rich individuals and corporations.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by jevoten on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:45AM (#30145530)
> What steps have you taken to reduce your wages towards the median?

The way to reign in employer exploitation is by improving the bargaining position and political power of workers (via laws and unions). Taking a voluntary pay cut is as effective as voluntarily paying a higher tax rate if you believe taxes are too low.

Here's an example of how to improve working conditions - see if it includes any workers taking a voluntary pay cut to reduce inequality: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28603398

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by vba616 on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:23AM (#30145167)
>we could reduce wage inequality by $133 billion. Not too shabby!

There are about 130 million full time workers in the US. Multiplying that by $36K, which is obviously wrong, but I believe gives an order of magnitude at least, is nearly $5 trillion.

$133 billion would then be a couple or three percent. Which would be good for one year's cost of living increase. Better than nothing.

I'm not endorsing your math, just taking it as given, and please don't take mine too seriously.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by aaomidi on Sunday January 30, 2022 @11:50PM (#30144602)
The difference is that we don't own the means of production either. We're still workers.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by rightbyte on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:28AM (#30145450)
But we do own the means of production. Unless you have no personal computer or think the Jira instance we all are forced to use is necessary for coding. =)
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by vba616 on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:28AM (#30145187)
Anyone who is a software engineer on HN surely is accumulating capital to retire some day and will likely succeed.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by pjerem on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:57AM (#30145313)
> Anyone who is a software engineer on HN

In the US.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by vba616 on Monday January 31, 2022 @06:25PM (#30156299)
I think there is such a thing as retirement outside the US.

I thought that pensions are more common, as a matter of fact. You almost have to be a government employee to have a pension these days, in the US.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by broken8ball on Monday January 31, 2022 @06:50AM (#30147005)
I’ll do ya one even better: how about we raise the median wage instead? Call me crazy.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by tluyben2 on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:20AM (#30145416)
Sending it back to your employer would result in getting the people who usually truly do nothing (shareholders, board members etc) to get more money. I cannot really see how this type of action can work out. It has to start from a government or a large company doing it first. In the EU we have this more or less gov controlled and it works ok. But of course software engineers cry they make too little as they compare to the US.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by mjcohen on Sunday January 30, 2022 @11:46PM (#30144578)
Better to send it to low wage workers.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by matheusmoreira on Sunday January 30, 2022 @11:58PM (#30144667)
> we are heading to a dual class dystopian future

There is only one possible outcome where everybody wins and that is capitalism becomes so incredibly good at eliminating inefficiencies that all possible work is automated away, leading to the collapse of capitalism itself since it depends on continuous consumption which depends on disposable income which won't exist because there are no jobs.

I'd really like to believe this is the point where the world evolves into post scarcity where there is no economy because there is enough for everybody and no need to economize anything. Realistically, the corporations will most likely literally invent new economies out of thin air based on nothing just like they did when they conjured up nonsense like copyright.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by creato on Monday January 31, 2022 @12:02AM (#30144689)
I don’t see how you can look at what happened in the last year and conclude we are anywhere near “post-scarcity”.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by Brian_K_White on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:11AM (#30145375)
The food an other resources exists in abundance and so do the means of production and distribution.

All scarcity problems since 50 or even 100 years ago are artificial self inflicted constructs.

We are post-scarcity the moment we simply decide to be.

The reason we haven't and wont any time soon is property rights and everyone who has anything to lose in any redistribution or any change to future distribution.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by matheusmoreira on Monday January 31, 2022 @07:53AM (#30147374)
I didn't say we were nearing post scarcity. I said that's the only ideal outcome. We're closer to a cyberpunk dystopia where gigacorporations are more powerful than governments.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by krageon on Monday January 31, 2022 @07:59AM (#30147421)
In what way are we not? The food was fine, the power stayed on and I had water. Sure, it's harder to buy computers but the lifecycle for them was too short anyway.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by telxosser on Monday January 31, 2022 @08:23AM (#30147603)
The problem is whatever advances we make they just quickly become viewed as a natural given by the historically ignorant.

It wasn't that long ago that 30% of children died before age 1. Imagine having a baby and there is a 30% chance it is dead in a year? That is almost all of human history.

The complaint will remain constant no matter what. If everyone owned a BMW some people would complain there is this aristocratic class that has a 7 series while the peasants all own 3 series and that we need to make things more equal.

We are so equal that the richest man in history and a homeless person practically have the same smart phone.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by charcircuit on Sunday January 30, 2022 @10:44PM (#30144223)
My skills can provide more value than others. It's natural that my pay is not equal to others.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by beckman466 on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:55AM (#30145300)
only because you won the lottery of birth. your brain isn't somehow genetically better than others' brains. you had access to more bridges/ladders early in your development, that's it. most people cannot grow further instead of bridges/ladders they meet walls/moats.
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by krageon on Monday January 31, 2022 @08:01AM (#30147431)
> your brain isn't somehow genetically better than others' brains.

You're going to have to elaborate on that, because AFAIK humanity has not solved intelligence to the point that we can say it is entirely nurture. That makes it reasonable to assume that it is part nature, which means that yes. It is genetically better than others' brains. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by mutatio on Monday January 31, 2022 @05:37AM (#30146590)
Isn't the logical conclusion of this that the Darwin's, Newton's and Einstein's of this world weren't genetically predisposed, merely consequences of fate?

You don't believe success is a combination of nature and nurture?

[dead]
Re:When the algorithm is your boss by beckman466 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @01:15AM (#30159199)
please consider taking your own advice.

with ladders/bridges and walls/moats i am talking about the existing material reality that has one class (the propertied class) creating unnecessary artificial scarcity (on non-scarce material, i.e. using the intellectual property system) which stops the organic spread of technology and knowledge overall, as it's following the profit motive of capitalism. this article is from a socialist magazine, so it's common to refer to systemic black boxing and alienating/obscuring technology as 'gatekeeping'/'rent-seeking' (creating walls with unaffordable gates (for 99.999% of us)).

Re:When the algorithm is your boss by mellavora on Monday January 31, 2022 @04:02AM (#30145998)
some are more equal than others