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Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by probably_wrong on Saturday January 29, 2022 @06:39AM (#30125567)
> [Operations] is a level of analysis between tactics (how do I fight the battle when I get there?) and strategy (why am I fighting overall?).

Does anyone here know a book dedicated to these topics? I always wanted to pick a "military textbook" (assuming such a thing exists), apply its lessons to Age of Empires, and see how far that gets me.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by mountainb on Saturday January 29, 2022 @09:51AM (#30126719)
They exist. There are military history generalist textbooks on archive.org along with more recent ones. For a more recent one I would recommend the Cambridge History of Warfare. https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-History-Warfare-Geoffrey-Pa...

If you have specific questions about how military units are organized in the modern era, I would really suggest downloading US army manuals on various topics from the era that you want more information about. For example, if you want to learn how US officers were trained to attack a city, download the manual about it, and it talks about what infrastructure to blow up first, how to handle communications, what formations to use, and so on and so forth. It's a lot more direct than reading a conventional history of a war. You can get answers to questions like "how did soldiers learn to move with stealth during the Vietnam war" by reading the manual more efficiently than you can from general histories.

I really recommend reading military material and not trying to glean things from games or fiction. The latter lean heavily on rule of cool versus rule of not dying and killing the other guy more effectively.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by hutzlibu on Saturday January 29, 2022 @04:13PM (#30130524)
"I really recommend reading military material and not trying to glean things from games or fiction. The latter lean heavily on rule of cool versus rule of not dying and killing the other guy more effectively. "

Very true, but there are still some games, that are more realistic, than others, so you can learn real tactics from them. And I enjoy them more, than the "cool" games, despite having no intentions of ever being close to a real battlefield.

- Operation Flashpoint, a shooter (later Arma) is an example, that is also actually used by some real armies as a training simulation (but in a modified version).

- Close combat series, is a tactical strategy game, where you command small units in WW2. (which can run out of ammunition, or simply run away or surrender, if they are under too much pressure)

- Total War series, for big old school battles, with Units in tight formations against each other.

And about realism and coolness and war: I actually think, all those glorifying Call of Duties etc. for example are really dangerous for the minds of the teens playing it, as they show mainly the glorious side. There are no civilians for example. You can just blow up allmost anything and the game rewards you for it. (mostly)

In those games, I never had a moment, like I had with Operation Flashpoint. In one add on, you fought as the red army against resistance. So people in civilian clothing, but some with guns that want to kill you. And this is what matters, since one bullet can kill you - so you shoot at them. At anything that moves. But after the battle you see, oh. Most of them were really harmless civilians. And you shot them, because you were scared, that they shoot you. There was no glory in that. But it left a deep impression with me and I started to understand, what collateral damage really means. And how it is impossible to avoid them in an urban war setting, like in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by mountainb on Sunday January 30, 2022 @06:04AM (#30135860)
Sure, I grew up on those games and have thousands of hours in the Total War series. You can learn some general principles from games because it illustrates them pretty well. But they are also fundamentally distant from reality because they cannot simulate anything like the real dynamics and physical characteristics of historic and current-day combat. Even micro things like how human beings move or communicate tends to be profoundly different in real life despite the visual fidelity games are sometimes capable of.
Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by tehjoker on Saturday January 29, 2022 @10:57AM (#30127291)
Something that always confused me. How come current tactical manuals are not classified? If tactics change, why let an opposing force read all about it? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it but it does strike me as weird.
Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by fredophile on Saturday January 29, 2022 @11:37AM (#30127683)
Probably because it isn't worth doing. Let's say you really wanted to make your infantry tactics classified at the secret level. Getting any security clearance takes a long time. Are you going to make every new infantry recruit get a secret clearance before they begin training? If not, how do you plan to teach them how to do their job?

Now imagine you want to send military trainers to help build up a friendly nation's military. What are they allowed or not allowed to teach?

It also isn't that hard for other countries to use aerial or satellite surveillance to see what you're doing. Infantry tactics need to be practiced outside. How will you stop other countries from observing your tactics during training exercises?

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by KineticLensman on Saturday January 29, 2022 @11:28AM (#30127610)
(In the UK the equivalent manuals are classified, albeit at a low-level).

It's a bit like knowing the general rules of chess vs. having a specific gambit for use in a particular game. Some of the information in the manuals is common military knowledge, e.g. how convoys work, how to position forces making use of cover, etc. In effect the military laws-of-physics.

What usually remains classified are the detailed Tactics, Techniques and Procedures (TTPs) associated with given weapon systems or specialist force elements. Also, plans for specific operations are usually 'born secret' and tend to remain classified as that would give away thinking.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by gherkinnn on Saturday January 29, 2022 @11:35AM (#30127672)
The same way I don’t need to keep the principle behind my house key or computer encryption a secret.

They’re quick to leak and near impossible to change once inevitably leaked.

I would assume the hardest part is sustaining the machine that provides the logistics anyway.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by sornaensis on Saturday January 29, 2022 @07:14AM (#30125703)
I would suggest looking into proper wargames if you are interested in applying realworld military strategy or tactics: Gary Grigsby series, Combat Mission series, The Operational Art of War, Graviteam Tactics, and Campaign Series are all pretty solid simulation-oriented computer wargames. Total War is kinda ok too but in general most rts are going to be won by player APM and doing optimal builds (which work due to arbitrary game mechanics) and real world strategy wont really work out due to simplified mechanics and pace. For instance, most 'strategy' games don't model morale or spotting at all. To say nothing of operational concerns like equipment availability or condition.
Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by ineedasername on Saturday January 29, 2022 @12:28PM (#30128264)
Von Clausewitz's On War isn't a bad place to start. It goes from theory to strategy down to some place in between strategy and tactics. I think he planned to go further but died before completion. Of course it might have been mostly irrelevant 150 years later where there have been advancements in both military doctrine and technology that significantly shape modern tactics. But, absent a modern military thinker on his level, he's a good source. (Though he had his critics too, and I simply don't know enough about the landscape of modern military geniuses < 50 years past to recommend someone better)

Here's an Amazon listing to give you a quick overview but it's old enough to get free copies.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08QDT681F/

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by hutzlibu on Saturday January 29, 2022 @07:05AM (#30125671)
Clausewitz and Sun Tzu are classics, but for epic battles closer to realism, I rather recommend the Total War series than Age of Empire.

Mainly, because in real war, troop morale is a main factor - and the best war tactics are those, that crush the enemies spirit and not their bones.

This is a main quote from Sun Tzu(from the back of my head): if you manage to route the enemy forces in panic, you gain more, than slaughtering them all.

Because they will spread the fear of your troops themself.

(but this part is not captured well in total war, as there you gain indeed benefits from high body count and enemy troops remain the same fighting spirit, even if they ran away in terror all the battles before)

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by raducu on Saturday January 29, 2022 @07:58AM (#30125919)
My favorit parts was about the honorable leader being exposed to being shamed, that's a good introduction to Machiavelli and real politics.

Also where he says that great victories seem obvious and seamless because of great preparations of the leader -- like lifting a hare doesn't seem a great feat of strenght.

But the stuff about tactics is also very good, though on second thought when to attack and when not to, strength ratio and forces positioning probably is more about strategy than tactics.

Also about the political ends and not just the military, even though he says when the decision to go to war the political lord should not interfere with the decision of his general is usually turned on its head a lot and people often forget that war should not be an end in itself and the military should not get more power than the political and ultimate strategy is not about the military.

War was the worst outcome in the day of Sun Tzu as much as today and overall people were much worse after a war(except for a very small minority)-- like the people who think US should have kept the Vietnam war going, or that WW1 Germany military was betrayed, or USSR should have hept on fighting the Cold War and so on.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by denton-scratch on Saturday January 29, 2022 @08:21AM (#30126053)
> but this part is not captured well in total war

If you can rout the enemy force in TW, it then becomes massively easier to destroy them completely. Soldiers that are running away can't do much damage to their pursuers. As soon as you turn your back on your enemy, your chances of being killed increase dramatically.

If you rout your enemy in TW, you are offered the choice to accept a victory, or to continue fighting. Unless I'm bored, I always run them down; I don't want them retrained and reinforced, to come back later with added experience points.

In Napoleon TW, the best units for running down routed enemy troops are light cavalry. I suspect that's what lancers were really for.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by hutzlibu on Saturday January 29, 2022 @08:31AM (#30126122)
Sure, in a single battle you want to route the enemy as fast as possible.

But my point was, that in the next battle all those troops that ran away are fully restored, so yes the winning tactic is to have light cavalery to chase them down, (which is what they were used for in real life, too.)

So Sun Tzus advice to sometimes let the enemy run away on purpose, so their fear infects other enemy troops for easier future battles - is not captured.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by denton-scratch on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:43PM (#30129069)
Yes, that's correct; it's not captured. In TW, I believe it's always advantageous to run routing troops down. In real life, not necessarily.
Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by Someone on Saturday January 29, 2022 @12:05PM (#30127988)
If people learned from what happened to others that running a way isn’t a good idea, wouldn’t they get more motivated not to do that?

Is that not modeled in that game, or is the effect so small that it doesn’t make a large enough difference?

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by hutzlibu on Saturday January 29, 2022 @03:50PM (#30130294)
In some TW games this is slightly modeled in, in the sense, that a unit might choose to fight till death, rather than running away, when they are surrounded and they have nowhere to run. So then you open up a way .. and they will try to run again, which is easier to finish them without own casualties.

But those are hardcoded algorithms.

The units do not really learn. (that would be awesome, but is very very hard to implement in realtime in a proper way) They just improve their stats with experience. So they get stronger in stats in either case, even when fleeing every single battle.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by shadowofneptune on Saturday January 29, 2022 @04:01PM (#30130401)
At least for Rome Total War and Medieval II, experience does mean a difference. A veteran army will fight for several times longer against overwhelming odds than a newly recruited one before breaking. It also depends on training: even green Roman troops will last longer in prolonged battle than green Gallic ones. Do not remember how later games deal with that. One thing the author of this series stresses is that battle is very emotional and you can't learn from a book that running away is a bad idea.
Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by wjnc on Saturday January 29, 2022 @07:00AM (#30125656)
You should browse acoup because he often mentions sources for different avenues of thought. He even has a tag for [operations] [1]

Now that I am searching - he does use the operations level mainly to make fun of books, series and movies where his historical examples have more sources.

[1] https://acoup.blog/tag/operations/

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by mcphage on Saturday January 29, 2022 @10:33AM (#30127098)
I would love if the author compiled his many blog essays into a book!
Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by mrDmrTmrJ on Saturday January 29, 2022 @10:43PM (#30133747)
I haven't read it yet, but B.A. Friedman's new book "On Operations" looks exactly like what you're asking for:

https://www.amazon.com/Operations-Operational-Art-Military-D...

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by silverPoodle on Saturday January 29, 2022 @07:18AM (#30125718)
I did the same, when I couldn't improve my SCII rank beyond Master 3.

A classic textbook about strategy is "The Art of War" by Sun Zhu. It's public domain and pretty short.

Another great books are "The 48 Laws of Power" and "The 33 Strategies of War".

For anything more complex, I recommend you to look into game theory.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by eru on Saturday January 29, 2022 @09:40AM (#30126606)
Game theory is fun, if you are into math.

If you want a pop sci introduction, Tom Schelling's Strategy of Conflict is great.

It won't help you do any better in strategy games, though.

A big part of the reason for that is that two player games we play for fun like Star Craft are inherently set up as zero sum games. From a game theory point of view, you just minimax and are done. (You might need some randomisation to be optimal.)

The really interesting parts of game theory are non-zero sum games.

See https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/tJQsxD34maYw2g5E4/thomas-c-s... for a review.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by Jarwain on Saturday January 29, 2022 @07:46AM (#30125842)
Did the books help raise your rank?
Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by silverPoodle on Saturday January 29, 2022 @10:06AM (#30126832)
I am only a half rank higher then before reading the books and the improvement could be also because of more playtime, but it really influenced my decision making. Actually I came to the decision to play aggressive openings only, build more traps, do hit and run attacks whenever I can and get more distractions before and while my attacks (sending some lings before spawning two nydus tunnels at two different locations really helps).
Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by tomjen3 on Saturday January 29, 2022 @07:33AM (#30125768)
The US marine Corps have a bunch of manuals on various tropics, which are better known as text books outside of the group. These are freely available.

If you prefer them with commentary, Jocko podcast has talked about some of them.

Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by Yoric on Saturday January 29, 2022 @06:46AM (#30125595)
Maybe Clausewitz, _Of War_? If my memory serves, this is largely lessons from Napoleonic strategies/tactics/....
Re:The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part I: Bargaining for Goods a... by moffkalast on Saturday January 29, 2022 @06:59AM (#30125651)
Wololo