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Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by javajosh on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:57PM (#30033332)
This sounds wonderful. But one argument used against 50/50 and in favor of asymmetric time is "kids need continuity". This inevitably favors the mother. "60/40" means the father gets every other weekend and one night a week. Numerically this works out to 80/20 and even young children are quite aware of who their real parent is. It is horrible but it is also SOP for most jurisdictions in the US, and I am not being hyperbolic when I say it's a real, first-world humanitarian crisis. Children do not fair well without fathers, and yet our system degrades the very notion of fatherhood every chance it gets. Furthermore, the bad actors that populate family courts - judges, lawyers, police, therapists, mediators, visitation center workers - they all know the score and as a father you are truly a second-class citizen. You see the children at the whim of your wife, and literally no-one gives a single shit. Why the system is not 50/50 is beyond me, because the argument for continuity is absolutely ridiculous on its face. The real reason it continues is that in family court mothers have far more rights than fathers. Full stop. It's sexist, it's harmful to the children, and yes, I'll even say it's harmful for the father (although you're not supposed to say that, and if you do the system assumes you're lying to be manipulative).

This 60/40 aka 80/20 situation is the good outcome for most fathers. It really only gets worse from there. If you give the judge attitude, they will have no problem putting you on supervised visitation indefinitely.

Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by kodah on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:22PM (#30033514)
> This 60/40 aka 80/20 situation is the good outcome for most fathers. It really only gets worse from there. If you give the judge attitude, they will have no problem putting you on supervised visitation indefinitely.

This is incredibly sad.

Edit:

I was curious and I shouldn't have been: https://www.custodyxchange.com/topics/research/dads-custody-...

Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by dragonwriter on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:59PM (#30033757)
> The research was conducted over a four month period by talking to legal professionals in every state to find out what the most commonly awarded schedule is for their state.

So, they didn't study actual custody awards, but lawyers opinions about what was “most common”.

So, it's not really a study of what the reality of custody time is, but a study of expert opinion is of what that actual study of the ground truth would find if someone bothered to do it.

Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by kodah on Saturday January 22, 2022 @12:26AM (#30033913)
> if someone bothered to do it

I didn't notice that bit, so good find. I was bummed to see that most studies don't actually try to ascertain who usually wins when both parents want custody and there are no extenuating circumstances. That seems like an obvious metric to track the health of custody laws.

This is the only government data I found: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio...

Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by dragonwriter on Saturday January 22, 2022 @01:39AM (#30034305)
> I was bummed to see that most studies don't actually try to ascertain who usually wins when both parents want custody and there are no extenuating circumstances

The problem is that if there is a custody dispute, then probably at least one, and usually both, sides will be pleading circumstances which pull one way or the other. And any court is likely to issue fact findings that lean the same direction as the custody order. So, if you are going to find what bias exists in the court system you can't look at just custody orders and legally determined facts, you've got to separately readjudicate the fact disputes with an unbiased process. Which is...problematic.

Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by kodah on Saturday January 22, 2022 @02:23AM (#30034498)
I agree that re-adjudicating cases would be costly and would not be perceived as fair even if it were righting a wrong.

That said, instead of changing individual decisions you can punish the state for outcomes whether they be intended or unintended. Disparate impact (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_impact) is one such tool the courts are already familiar with. There's more nuance to that which can't be ignored - a person can sue an entity for disparate impact but disparate impact is also calculated regularly with respect to lending. The same could be done for custody.

Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by dragonwriter on Saturday January 22, 2022 @03:27AM (#30034816)
> I agree that re-adjudicating cases would be costly and would not be perceived as fair even if it were righting a wrong.

No, I mean the study would have to readjudicate the cases (not change the legal outcome, but redivining the actual facts from the trial record) to identify differing treatment in different factual circumstances between states.

Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by kodah on Saturday January 22, 2022 @05:58PM (#30041663)
What do you propose doing then?
Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by actually_a_dog on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:44PM (#30033655)
I've heard people say a couple things about this that I don't know are true. One is that fathers don't get custody because they don't ask for it. The other is that most custody arrangements are worked out before anyone ever steps into a courtroom.

Does anybody know if these things are fact or fiction? If either or both of those are true, it seems like you can't really blame "the system" for these results.

Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by kodah on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:58PM (#30033751)
If you read some of the synopsis at the bottom it explains it. It's a mix of laws and societal attitudes.

This data is also further simplified:

> The percentages in the study reflect cases in which both parents want custody and no complicating circumstances exist ― such as criminal convictions or long-distance separation. It demonstrates the most commonly awarded visitation schedules given to a noncustodial parent by state.

Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by makomk on Saturday January 22, 2022 @06:58AM (#30035908)
There's a lot of outright misinformation out there - one of the commoner misleading claims is that 50% of fathers who seek custody get it, usually used to trick people into thinking that actually both parents are treated equally and all the complaints are just from men thinking "equality" should mean they get better treatment. The thing is, that 50% figure includes joint custody which can be as little as one weekend a fortnight with the kids in some juristictions, and I think also cases in which the kids' mother isn't actually seeking custody. So a better framing of the same stat is that amongst a self-selected sample of those fathers who think they stand the best chance of obtaining custody, half fail to even get joint custody (which could well mean never seeing their kids again, especially in juristictions where visitation isn't well enforced). That's probably a good explaination for why few fight for it.
Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by Brybry on Saturday January 22, 2022 @12:52AM (#30034047)
Anecdotally, the system was 50/50 for my sister when she got divorced.

There was definitely no court bias for the mother, which was a surprise given that this is the popular culture stereotype. And child support was purely formula based.

The most annoying thing was domiciliary parent designation, even with 50/50 joint custody, as the domiciliary parent had more decision power which allowed for unnecessary drama.

One thing to note is that all of this is state (and country) specific and states might vary significantly.

Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by coredog64 on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:11PM (#30033442)
50/50 usually means no child support, if you’re looking for reasons why it’s uncommon.
Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by boppo1 on Saturday January 22, 2022 @12:26AM (#30033915)
Do you mean the mothers fight for more custody so they can nab an income?
Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by Talanes on Saturday January 22, 2022 @12:56AM (#30034077)
Or they don't trust the father to put in his fair share of doctor's visits, buying clothes, etc. The upside of paying child support is that the other party is assumedly taking point on all of those expenses.
Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by Muromec on Saturday January 22, 2022 @02:50AM (#30034628)
In the Netherlands you can still pay child support with 50/50 if there is difference in income, just less of it.
Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by jquery on Saturday January 22, 2022 @12:02AM (#30033766)
It used to be women being stuck in bad marriages because otherwise they would lose their source of income. Increasingly, it's men stuck in bad marriages because otherwise they will lose access to their children.
Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by javajosh on Saturday January 22, 2022 @06:05PM (#30041733)
Or worse: men who don't realize how dangerous divorce is to their relationship with their children, and believe that the system is basically fair. It is not.
Re:Divorce in the rich world is getting less nasty by jimbob45 on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:15PM (#30033467)
My buddy used to do 80/20 but on alternating months. So he’s go to his dad’s on weekends on one month and then the next month he’d do weeks at his dad’s. Worked reasonably well IMHO. Guess I should ask him how he felt.