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Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by peteradio on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:57AM (#30024314)
Restaurants can really barely afford to stay open in my (small) region, frankly they are seen as a service to a town not a net extractor. I know the finances behind my locals and can tell you they would not be able to stay open if workers were not also compensated via tips, and workers would not be there without the requisite pay. Tips end up being the difference between having a restaurant or not.
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by soco on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:08AM (#30024488)
I'm not sure I understand: me as a customer, whether I pay the menu + 20% tip, or I pay a menu 20% more expensive, I end up exactly the same. So why is for the restaurant owner better with tipping, instead of raising the prices 20% and putting an entry sign "no tipping needed here, we pay our workers right"? Even call the restaurant "no tipping place" if they wish. Can someone with experience in restaurant business explain this?
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by irrational on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:17AM (#30024632)
When did tipping become 20%? The majority of my life it was 15%. Then at a certain point I started hearing 18%. Now it is 20%? Who is behind this?
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by ModernMech on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:09AM (#30025476)
In my experience:

- Older generations tip maximum 15%, and decide what to tip based on service quality

- Millennials tip a flat 20%, regardless of service quality

- People who worked in the service industry will tip 30%, because they know what it's like.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by alexpetralia on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:40AM (#30025978)
Software nudges (e.g. Square). This scales social behavior very quickly.
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by soco on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:16PM (#30027598)
I'm not from the US so I didn't really have an idea what to take, so I pulled a figure out of my :) sorry for the confusion!
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by ghaff on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:39AM (#30025025)
Social norms.

But, yes, it's creeped up from 15% before tax to 18-20% on the total bill in general.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by irrational on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:43AM (#30025080)
Yes, but social norms don’t come out of nowhere. It was 15% for a long time, then it went to 18% (why 18? I can see the jump to 20% as people wanting to do easier math than 18%). Someone somewhere had to have created this new social norm.
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by ghaff on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:53AM (#30025212)
> Someone somewhere had to have created this new social norm.

Someone didn't need to do anything and as far as I know, no individual decreed anything. (Although possibly guidebook and etiquette writes have helped contribute.)

It makes some sense with inflation and probably lack of increase in wait staff salaries. Restaurants often show recommended tips and even mandatory service adders for large groups. But, for the most part, it's probably been mostly organic.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by peteradio on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:17AM (#30024614)
Menu: $5 burger

Customer 1 (richy rich): $5 + $2 tip

Customer 2 (workin man): $5 + $1 tip

Customer 3 (poor man): $5 no tip

Total: $18

Menu: $6 burger

Customer 1 (richy rich): $6 + $1 tip

Total: $7

You've reduced your customer based on true affordability and perceived affordability. This doesn't consider the margin on selling a single burger but generally you need to push product rather than sell master pieces.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by bena on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:36AM (#30024964)
Your contrived hypothetical scenario is not proof of your conjecture.

Because there are plenty of places that don't work with tips that do fine. Hell, some of our least expensive options operate in a tip-free environment. And no restaurant where tipping is expected is selling for the same price as fast food places in the first place. So it's not the scenario where you're looking at two options that seem equally priced, but one has the hidden tip tax on it. No, you're looking at two options where one is just more expensive and you have to tip.

And why are restaurants special in this regard? Why does no other sector have to operate on this model, where a customer has to directly pay a businesses employees? And why only in the U.S.? How did the rest of the world figure this one out but we can't seem to shake it?

Tipping is stupid and is anti-ethical to actual customer service as it pits staff against the customer and creates resentment in both directions.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by peteradio on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:27PM (#30028720)
If you look into the financializations of any Restaurant you won't necessarily be able to generalize to all Restaurants. McDonald's empire is built on real estate not burgers anymore for instance.

Anyway I was speaking specifically on my own regions circumstances, we don't have fastfood within a 1hr round-trip. That 1hr adds up to a few bucks gas and time I don't have. There is no 2 options.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by bena on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:07PM (#30029260)
Extrapolating from singular circumstances is worse than generalizing from the most common.
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by pjmorris on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:28AM (#30024819)
Seems like you'd still have two customers (The burger is still in 'workin man''s budget), at 2/3 the food cost.
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by peteradio on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:37AM (#30024972)
You are right, but I removed him to make the point that this is partly based on perception of the person doing the buying.

Workin man this week is poor man next week and then some weeks he's richy rich. Do you want to capture all forms of this guy?

None of this is rigorous of course but ya know we don't have a town full of 1 guy with a single budget. We have a town full of people with various and changing budgets, what kind of mechanism can be put into place to keep base finances workable in tight times while extracting more in good times?

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by lotsofpulp on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:48AM (#30025143)
> what kind of mechanism can be put into place to keep base finances workable in tight times while extracting more in good times?

Surely there must be a way because every other business seems to manage, and so do restaurants in 50%+ of the world.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by AlexandrB on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:10PM (#30027493)
Based on many of the other comments here it would look more like:

Customer 1 (richy rich): $5 + no tip

Customer 2 (workin man): $5 + $2 tip

Customer 3 (poor man): $5 + $1 tip

The tip amount seems to depend more on empathy/demographics than the amount of money one has to spend.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by EvRev on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:13AM (#30024553)
When we look at the issues that are behind the thin margins that restaurants operate on, i.e. rent and cost of goods, then it seems that the labor is the only variable that is under the operators control. So instead of framing the argument of whether we should have to directly pay those wages/tips the discussion needs to shift.

Why are commercial rents so high? Because vacancies are preferred over "market rate" rents. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27939860

Not saying this is the case, but when a business shuts down the property it operated in stays in place. The rent will continue to rise to meet the financial demands of the property owner. So the next fool comes in and tries to run a business that is doomed. The young workers rents are subsidized by parents. Unless a restaurant owner is working in the trenches then they will NEVER be able to run the business effectively.

The banks get richer either way, but at a certain point there will not be any restaurants left as the societal contracts erode.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by burkaman on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:58AM (#30024340)
Would customers be willing to pay marginally higher menu prices if tips were explicitly not allowed? I assume there must be research on this.
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by peteradio on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:04AM (#30024433)
Changing menu prices is probably a bit less elastic than letting people be flexible with their spending. I'm more likely to buy the burger that I can afford and stinge on the tip if I'm tight and come back next week and guilt tip when I'm full. Raise the price across the board and I'm not coming the tight week.
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by watwut on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:17AM (#30024615)
Why should wait staff salary be the thing that gets sacrificed to economic downfall? They have much less control over what kind of food the restaurants sell and for what price.

It makes more sense for those who have more decision power to eat the consequences. They can make cheaper burgers, lower salaries for everyone rather then single profession, change what they sell.

The wait staff can only decide whether they work or not.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by mindslight on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:39AM (#30025032)
Tipping as price discrimination, with positive empathy from a human face being the upsell.

You can pay either $8 or $10 for the same meal. If you pay $8 you feel bad, if you pay $10 you feel good. Thereby the restaurant takes in the full $10 from people who can afford it and/or aren't psychopaths, but still makes the sale at $8 for anyone else.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by kevin_nisbet on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:20AM (#30024673)
So I think a different angle to look at something like this is. If everyone in an area gets paid a living wage, and the people who work at a business can actually afford to be customers of that business, it actually creates more customers and businesses overall do better.

I forget the name of who put this idea forward, but businesses that barely break even when paying the absolute minimums, don't necessarily do worse if labor costs go up universally in an area, and everyone can begin to afford to use the services.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by bena on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:27AM (#30024804)
This is kind of a bullshit excuse.

Most restaurants can barely afford to stay open because most restaurants are run by people who have no business running a business. Hell, let's be honest, most businesses are run by people who have no business running a business. Most people don't really want to run a business, they want to do something else, but also get paid to do it.

There are plenty of small restaurants around the world that get by fine without tips and manage to pay their employees. But for some reason, the U.S. thinks this is somehow impossible.

Tipping is stupid. But since servers can make more money than on a set wage, they don't mind that the restaurant owners are essentially pitting their employees against their customers. You know what would increase the overall level of service? If the restaurant paid a decent wage to their employees and then removed the obligation from the customer to pay the restaurant's employees.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by gunfighthacksaw on Friday January 21, 2022 @12:11PM (#30026474)
It always blows my mind when business owners complain “oh labour is too expensive, oh I can’t stay in business”

Yes, that’s how capitalism, markets and commerce work. It has good parts and bad parts. If you don’t want the government to get involved when it’s going well, why get them involved when it isn’t? Greed and hypocrisy, that’s why.

Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by runako on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:01AM (#30024381)
If the region can't afford a restaurant without having external taxpayers subsidize the restaurant (e.g. via social safety net transfer payments), perhaps it shouldn't have one. Every business doesn't need to scale down or up to fill every niche.
Re:Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now by elvis10ten on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:01AM (#30024379)
Genuinely curious: what if your local restaurants raise prices too?