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Re:Comcast Shot Themselves in the Foot with MTA-STS by RedShift1 on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @02:21PM (#29998641)
I think the real problem is (emphasis mine):

> the MX record is vulnerable to manipulation unless DNSSEC is used, but people don't like DNSSEC which is why MTA-STS was invented

This speaks volumes about the way these protocols are developed and subsequently implemented in software. People are not going to like complex solutions and that should be kept in mind when those protocols are being developed and implemented, otherwise its deployment is hampered just like we're seeing now with DNSSEC. In fact, now we've got MTA-STS because "people don't like DNSSEC", involving a whole HTTPS stack on both sides with so much more failure points just to send an email.

Re:Comcast Shot Themselves in the Foot with MTA-STS by KennyBlanken on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:54PM (#30002235)
It's not that people don't "like" DNSSEC.

The author themselves states in a different post on their blog that DNSSEC is avoided like the plague because it is a royal pain in the ass to set up and outages at major corporations (coughSlackcough) that clearly have talented, knowledgeable, experienced ops people show that the standard was not designed with practical implementation in mind.

"Security that is difficult to implement and can cause catastrophic-level outages not used by majority of internet; film at 11."

Instead of lecturing everyone on how they should be using DNSSEC, what we should be doing is working on "DNSSEC 2.0", from lessons learned in the 2-3 decades people have been trying to use DNSSEC.

Re:Comcast Shot Themselves in the Foot with MTA-STS by tptacek on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @09:14PM (#30003516)
Exactly this. DNSSEC is needlessly complicated in large part because its service model was fixed in the mid-late 1990s, when the conventional wisdom was that DNS servers would never be powerful enough to actually perform cryptographic operations. A true DNSSEC 2.0 could simply forego the concept of offline signers (which has largely been foregone already, because online signing is necessary to serve secure NXDOMAINs without revealing all your hostnames) and sign/encrypt on demand.

But DNSSEC 2.0 is unlikely to happen, because DoH solves most of the real-world on-the-wire problems with DNS security. There have always been two visions for how to secure the DNS: the top-down way, with signatures rolling down from the roots, a la DNSSEC, and the bottom-up way, where leaf servers allow individual clients to make secure queries, and we gradually converge on a secure DNS as more and more leafs make secure queries available. Top-down won at the IETF, but bottom-up is going to win the market.

Re:Comcast Shot Themselves in the Foot with MTA-STS by octoberfranklin on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:29PM (#30004656)
aka DNSCurve.

It may turn out that DNSSEC is useful, for exactly one thing: downloading the root zone securely. This circumvents any refusal to do signing-on-the-server by the root zone server operators.

Here are the instructions: https://localroot.isi.edu/

also: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8806

Re:Comcast Shot Themselves in the Foot with MTA-STS by octoberfranklin on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:26PM (#30004620)
See also: IPv6 instead of RFC 1710.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sipp-ipae-t...

Twenty-six years later, we're still waiting for IPv6 to be considered "the Internet".

Re:Comcast Shot Themselves in the Foot with MTA-STS by AndyMcConachie on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:14PM (#30001863)
comcast.net is DNSSEC signed and Comcast was one of the first major ISPs to implement DNSSEC validation. Comcast's MX records are DNSSEC signed.

> dig +dnssec comcast.net MX

This has nothing to do with DNSSEC.

Re:Comcast Shot Themselves in the Foot with MTA-STS by Dylan16807 on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:26PM (#30001976)
It has nothing to do with Comcast not liking DNSSEC.

But if the ecosystem as a whole was happy about DNSSEC and DANE, it's somewhat doubtful we'd have both specs and the involvement of https.

Re:Comcast Shot Themselves in the Foot with MTA-STS by tptacek on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:34PM (#30002035)
We would not. There'd be no reason to have MTA-STS if there was universal DNSSEC deployment. Of course, outages like this would be vastly more common, because DNSSEC includes a large superset of the failure modes of MTA-STS.