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Re:Native American restaurants by elil17 on Monday January 17, 2022 @10:03PM (#29974523)
It’s hard to really envision what any “authentic” American Indian ethnic cuisine would look like.

Most of what people ate prior to modernization was really, really gross by the standards of modern restaurants because decisions were driven by limited ingredients and limited fuel. Most of what anyone ate at that time was boiled and, outside of regions with easy access to spices, unseasoned. When the rest of the world was developing modern food cultures, American Indians were being subjugated and, later, forcibly assimilated by American colonizers. The only really good recent food invention from American Indian cultures has been fry bread which, while delicious, lacks something in sophistication. There are lots of good indigenous mesoamerican dishes but they’ve been assimilated into mainstream Mexican cuisine. No one thinks of chili verde as a “Native American food.”

Look at Wikipedia’s article “Indigenous cuisine of the Americas”. How many of this dishes under the North America subheading would you actually want to eat? Probably fry bread, maybe fish or meat jerky or pemmican, and definitely maple taffy.

Everything else is either an ingredient or not very good. I have tried Jonnycakes and they are a step down from cornbread. My mom talks about occasionally eating “mush” (acorn porridge, which would have been called t’epna by her grandparents) as a kid. She describes it as “pretty bad.” Everyone in her family far preferred the version of the dish that was invented in the 20th century, “Frito mush,” which is pretty much Frito pie but with soggy Fritos.

What you’re left with is modern attempts to make new dishes featuring the ingredients pre-assimilation American Indians were using. Mitsitam in DC is doing this, and I like their food (or, at least, liked - I haven’t been there in years and reviewers say it’s gone down hill). It’s stuff like “Indian tacos”, “seared boar”, and “salmon chowder.” The only thing there any Indians I know would eat day-to-day is Indian tacos, and I think there are literally no ingredients in those which are native to America except maybe some of the spices in the seasoning (they are regular Tex-mex tacos, with ground beef and the packets of seasoning, but made on fry bread instead of tortillas). I think this is probably the right way to go about doing American Indian cuisine, but it’s just not going to be recognizable in the American eye as an ethnic cuisine in the way that Italian and Chinese cuisines are. Instead, it’s going to look like traditional ingredients prepared with modern American and occasionally modern Mexican cooking techniques. Without knowledge of the history, that seems like it’s “inauthentic” or “westernized”, but really it’s all we’ve got. Well, that and frybread.

Re:Native American restaurants by seltzered_ on Monday January 17, 2022 @10:07PM (#29974554)
Sean Sherman (co-author of the sioux chef's indigenous kitchen) has a good talk on the history and their modern attempts here: https://vimeo.com/463609426
Re:Native American restaurants by WalterBright on Monday January 17, 2022 @10:19PM (#29974630)
This sounds odd because a large part of the variety of foods we eat today originated in the Americas, and were cultivated/bred by Native Indians.

Starting with the obvious - potatoes and corn.

Re:Native American restaurants by elil17 on Monday January 17, 2022 @10:38PM (#29974768)
The difference here is ingredient vs. dish.

Native Americans were eating boiled potatoes and potatoes in stew (and maybe roasted or baked potatoes). There was no dairy to make mashed potatoes and no abundance of cooking oil to make fried potatoes. Everything else comes after colonization.

Americans were also eating flint corn and sweet corn (although it was much less sweet than modern sweet corn). Flour corn was mesoamerican and dent corn was made by colonizers. So you’d get corn in boiled and in stews and maybe roasted, and you’d get jonnycakes (although they wouldn’t be like modern jonnycakes), but most of the corn dishes we eat today are based off of mesoamerican cuisine (save for cornbread, which is probably inspired by Jonnycakes but is made with dent corn as well as wheat flour and chemical leavening).

So we have a lot of American Indian ingredients and even some dishes inspired by American Indian dishes, but nothing which is culturally distinct as American Indian food.

Re:Native American restaurants by WalterBright on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:05AM (#29975345)
The idea that Native American food is only "ingredients" and not "dishes" seems bizarre to me.
Re:Native American restaurants by dsr_ on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:39AM (#29978845)
"dishes" require some form of transmission - people teaching their children how to make them, writing down recipes.

It's tough to maintain that continuity when writing is expensive or nonexistent, and the people who survived contact with Europeans were repeatedly forcibly resettled in different parts of the continent.

Re:Native American restaurants by zamadatix on Monday January 17, 2022 @11:05PM (#29974953)
Corn/potatoes are an ingredient, they make a relatively bland restaurant dish with just what native flavoring you could add. We're now also expanding to the even larger definition of "Native American" to refer to groups of people's over 2 continents e.g. modern potatoes were the ones from Chile directly not the descendents that spread north naturally. Corn was a lot more like the corn of today but again as an ingredient not a dish (think of the number of corn dishes that start with butter for example).
Re:Native American restaurants by derbOac on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:30AM (#29975485)
Authenticity in food from any culture is always dicey because of heterogeneity and change over time. It doesn't matter if you're talking about Native American/American Indian cuisine, German, Japanese, or whatever. So in that sense I think authenticity culinarily speaking is a red herring, something that doesn't exist.

What does exist is inspiration from traditions and ingredients, and I think that certainly applies. Even if it might be foolish to pursue what constitutes an "authentic" Native American cuisine, it's probably worthwhile and a good idea to think about what we want from Native American cuisine, or where we want it to go, where Native Americans want it to go. If Native American chefs are experimenting and bringing something new, that's Native American cuisine.

Ingredients are a powerful thing, too. There is a lot of convergence between ecological conservation and researching and exploring Native American ingredients, in the sense that there are many forgotten and useful crops and food sources to be explored and maybe developed. Pawpaws are one example that's received attention, one of many possibilities. The promise there is increasing dietary and agricultural diversity, to say the least of improving our understanding of history and anthropology.

Yaupon is another interesting example in this regard. The scientific name for this plant reflects European American ignorance about it and its use, an ignorance that drastically affected assumptions about it until relatively recently. It's basically a weed, but one that could be an agricultural crop like tea or coffee, or -- to make a more direct comparison, being botanically closely related -- mate.

I guess at some level I don't disagree with you, but maybe see authenticity as a moot point at some level? I don't care what's "recognizable in the American eye as an ethnic cuisine" because that's often inaccurate, outdated, or unmeaningful anyway. Inspiration and knowledge from Native American foods of the past, however it's used in the present, seems like a win-win to me.

Re:Native American restaurants by cat199 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @06:26AM (#29977652)
> Instead, it’s going to look like traditional ingredients prepared with modern American and occasionally modern Mexican cooking techniques. Without knowledge of the history, that seems like it’s “inauthentic” or “westernized”, but really it’s all we’ve got.

mixing up and confusing south-of-the-border indigenous culture with 'hispanic' and north-of-the-border indigenous culture as 'native american' probably doesn't help this much, dishes aside

Re:Native American restaurants by technothrasher on Monday January 17, 2022 @10:21PM (#29974642)
> I have tried Jonnycakes and they are a step down from cornbread.

I love Jonnycakes! I grew up on them though, which may be swaying my opinion.

Re:Native American restaurants by grayfaced on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:31AM (#29978739)
Wouldn't the same apply to Hawaii? Which it would be hard to argue they don't have ethnic cuisine.

This makes me curious. At what point does a culture start to to mature it's "cuisine"? Is it driven by commerce? Can family cooking alone drive cuisine forward?

Re:Native American restaurants by tablespoon on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:02AM (#29980161)
>> Everything else is either an ingredient or not very good. I have tried Jonnycakes and they are a step down from cornbread.

> Wouldn't the same apply to Hawaii? Which it would be hard to argue they don't have ethnic cuisine.

Not to say the GP is right, but I was in Hawaii a few years ago and the native food wasn't especially common. IIRC, there were only a few places that served poi, which used to be the staple food, and I had to specially seek it out. Plate lunches were everywhere by comparison.

Hawaiians are different than North American Indians, since, IIRC, the Hawaiians remained independent until much more recently. It's plausible that more of their traditions survived into modern times where preservation of such traditions seems to be a higher priority.

(To the GP) Aren't Jonnycakes European?

Re:Native American restaurants by 01100011 on Monday January 17, 2022 @11:22PM (#29975078)
From what I've heard, even a lot of the modern "Mexican" dishes are heavily influenced by contributions from the Conquistadors and others. Citrus, cilantro, livestock, dairy, rice, onions... none of these are native to the Americas.
Re:Native American restaurants by helsinkiandrew on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:35AM (#29975872)
> heavily influenced by contributions from the Conquistadors and others

And Al-pastor tacos are effectively Sharwarma kebabs introduced by Lebanese immigrants in the mid 20th century!

Re:Native American restaurants by idontwantthis on Monday January 17, 2022 @10:36PM (#29974749)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the origin of frybread is steeped in subjugation as well. Indians were forced off of productive land, and were given flour and lard to survive on. Frybread is basically what you can make out of that.
Re:Native American restaurants by elil17 on Monday January 17, 2022 @10:52PM (#29974869)
I’m not really Indian myself (didn’t grow up in the culture/my mother’s tribe) so I don’t think it’s my place to say whether it’s a good idea to include it in modern American Indian cuisine.

I will say that other oppressed groups have successfully integrated foods that came out of hardship into their cuisines - think matzah and components of Soul Food.

Re:Native American restaurants by ido on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:14AM (#29977982)
I wouldn't quite put matzah in the same boat as "food that came out of hardship", as the exodus is a founding myth & even if partially based on true events these events happened about 3500 years ago. Furthermore Jews today don't consider it as a tragedy (unlike e.g. the more recent and much more historical events commemorated by Tisha B'av).
Re:Native American restaurants by jcranmer on Monday January 17, 2022 @11:09PM (#29974978)
I read an article recently about Native American cuisine, and from what I gathered from that, Native Americans themselves are incredibly divided as to whether or not to include frybread in these kind of restaurants for that reason.
Re:Native American restaurants by UncleOxidant on Monday January 17, 2022 @10:25PM (#29974672)
> The only really good recent food invention from American Indian cultures has been fry bread which, while delicious, lacks something in sophistication.

As well as being lacking in nutrition.

Re:Native American restaurants by elil17 on Monday January 17, 2022 @10:39PM (#29974778)
I mean, no more so than French fries, flour tortillas, and white toast with butter. The nutrition comes from what you put on them.
Re:Native American restaurants by UncleOxidant on Monday January 17, 2022 @10:54PM (#29974889)
I guess I've never seen anyone put anything on fry bread except maybe sugar.