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A comment on More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years. Parent comment

Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by prirun on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:18PM (#29927006)
> One of the benefits of office jobs is that you get high pay, stable hours, relatively low stress and get to work in an air-conditioned room. So I would still prefer that over skilled trades even if the pay was the same.

One of the downsides is your job can be easily outsourced to a country with lower wages, and with remote work here to stay (IMO), that is going to be even easier than before.

There are no remote plumbers.

I firmly believe that if you show up on time, are pleasant, and are competent at your work, running your own business is a slam dunk and you can charge whatever you want (within reason). Because my experience is that it's nearly impossible anymore to get all of those things.

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by 908B64B197 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @08:23PM (#29929435)
> can be easily outsourced to a country with lower wages

There are shops that specialize in "re-shoring" projects after cheap offshored contractors end up spending the complete project's budget without shipping anything working.

Their salespeople would talk to potential clients, get the project's duration, then quote them a reasonable price for domestic developers, get laughed out of the room as the company decide to go with much cheaper "best cost countries". Then a few months before the end of the contract they would contact the same company again and most of the times (assuming the company was still alive, a lot of badly capitalized startups just shut down at this point after having wasted all their runway) end up re-doing the project.

But hey, this time, it’s going to be different!

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by coding123 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:41PM (#29928025)
Reminds me of when a plumber was installing an RO system in my house, was swearing for half an hour about the PEX, then forgot to shut-off the lines while a PEX fitting fell off and poured 200 gallons of water on my crappy fake wood shaw floor causing it to ripple. He then claimed it was my condos fault for using PEX in the first place. Holy crap you can't be more right.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by ethbr0 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @09:52PM (#29930079)
I'm of the firm opinion that residential tradespeople are the Law of Lemons at this point. If they were better: they'd be doing commercial.

Consequently, if you find someone who doesn't do commercial, beware.

Exception: someone over the age of 55 who continues doing skilled work as a "pro-hobby."

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by chongli on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:22AM (#29933116)
I just want to emphasize your exception. Old tradespeople are the best! I have had nothing but good experiences with them. Young hotheads are everywhere in the trades and they can be so bad you have to call the police on them. Old guys who have survived for many years tend to be extremely knowledgeable and efficient in their work.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by ethbr0 on Friday January 14, 2022 @09:38AM (#29934926)
Related: Treat them better than you would a normal contractor. Because, honestly, they are probably doing you a favor. Which is to say, they could make more money doing another job with their skills, but are choosing to do yours.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by jimbokun on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:40PM (#29927264)
Software has been outsourced since the 1990s and still wages continue to increase.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by pasquinelli on Thursday January 13, 2022 @06:32PM (#29928526)
that will certainly never change.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by ethbr0 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @09:50PM (#29930064)
It won't change until people learn how to write better requirements, which means it will probably never change.

Software development in practice is rarely about how to build a thing, but very much about what to build.

And I have yet to see an outsourced shop that's good at solving that problem. (Sadly)

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by elefanten on Thursday January 13, 2022 @07:26PM (#29928973)
yeah neither will the skill trade. make sure you go all in.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by himinlomax on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:58PM (#29942536)
Do you think we are moving away from needing software any time soon?
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by wyclif on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:55AM (#29932535)
One of the downsides is your job can be easily outsourced to a country with lower wages, and with remote work here to stay (IMO), that is going to be even easier than before

Only if PII isn't an issue. Which it still is for a large number of remote jobs. You have to do the work inside US borders because of liability or security issues for an incredibly large number of remote roles. If you don't believe me, just roll over to weworkremotely.com or any of the other remote job boards and check out how many current openings specify "USA only."

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by democracy on Thursday January 13, 2022 @06:27PM (#29928467)
"easily outsourced" haha, not it cannot! This is also a skill on its own (to successfully manage an offshore team. And noone wants to do it frankly, too much work, too little appreciation.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by graycat on Thursday January 13, 2022 @08:17PM (#29929390)
A big point is: (1) As an employee X, the employer knows how much X is making and will try to keep that down, while (2) a person X who owns their own business that happens to be a good business can just rake in the money with nearly no one else the wiser who can stop or slow X.

E.g., while I was growing up, a guy in the neighborhood was doing really well. He was in the peanut vending business, you remember, put in a coin, turn a crank, and get out some peanuts. So the customer, how do they know how much money the peanut vendor is making?

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by joelbluminator on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:25AM (#29932721)
Well plumbing has problems as well: cognitive requirements are not especially high so in theory many people can do it if they are trained. Many immigrants to the U.S probably consider it.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by pyuser583 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @11:22PM (#29930562)
Software development is a team sport. It’s as much about having proper work cadence, communication, etc.

It’s really hard to outsource.

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by IntrepidWorm on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:44AM (#29936784)
That doesn't stop management from trying, though.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by spullara on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:31PM (#29927170)
If we can get AR/VR into the mainstream I bet there will be remote plumbers that essentially pilot you to diagnose and fix things.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by nsxwolf on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:02PM (#29927537)
Try pulling a broken cartridge out of a 20 year old shower faucet after the handle snaps off. I'll give you the pliers you need. You get one try and if you fail, you will now need the tools to remove tile or cut drywall, cut pipes, solder, etc.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by rcurry on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:52PM (#29928145)
Heh, so I installed a new faucet in our kitchen sink and thought I’d done a good job, I had hoses snaking all over the place and my wife was like “I can’t even use the pull-out sprayer because it won’t go back in once I pull it out.” So a few months later I call my plumber and ask if he can replace the valves under my kitchen sink because they’re old and the tolerances are outside my skill level for trying to saw them off and replace them. He comes out, spends an hour replacing the valves and then he’s like “oh yeah, I fixed all the hoses under the sink for no charge, the last guy did a horrible job, you can’t even use the sprayer!” I look under the sink and it’s like NASA came in and rerouted everything, tons of room, no crazy hoses hanging down, and the sprayer works!
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by lfowles on Thursday January 13, 2022 @06:58PM (#29928752)
I had plumbers out recently to replace a water heater.. after they left I went down to find out they had pushed the new one right up against the outlet the sump pump was using so I couldn't unplug that without moving the whole water heater. I'm not usually the one to complain that people don't take pride in their work but... it was a pretty visible and egregious error in a spacious and well conditioned utility room! Still haven't found anyone that goes above and beyond even for simple tasks.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by doubled112 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @06:15PM (#29928360)
Never mind 20 years old, I use a puller for much younger cartridges. Saves me needing the pull and pray method.

This is one of those things I believe to be more about feel.

That plumber has done this 1000 times and will make it look easy.

They can pass you tools, walk you through it, give you as much help as you can possibly receive, but you'll struggle a ton anyway. Or, as you say, break it.

Practice makes perfect. Sometimes it is still cheaper to get somebody who knows what they're doing. We can't yet remote that in.

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by tailrecursion on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:53PM (#29928162)
Interesting idea, and maybe we already have a step toward remote piloting in the form of Youtube videos that explain how to do various tasks: plumbing, home improvement, auto repair, hvac, and so on.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by yourusername on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:15AM (#29932261)
Maybe for simple things. Have you ever tried to plaster a wall or ceiling? You can watch 100 videos of how its done, if you don't have the motor skills and muscle memories it's not so easy. And even 'simple' DIY might be doable for a sample of the population but there are also people who struggle with putting together flat pack furniture. Are they going to be brazing their plumbing after watching a youtube video?
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by michaelt on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:06AM (#29932616)
Personally, I see society going in the opposite direction.

Back in the 1980s there were a lot more jobs in manufacturing, doing things like manual machining; and every driver had to have basic mechanic's skills because cars needed constant tinkering.

We've got many more youtube videos showing how to use a hacksaw - but far fewer people who use hacksaws on a daily basis.

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by spullara on Thursday January 13, 2022 @06:32PM (#29928532)
I love all the downvotes for something that is definitely going to happen. YouTube how-to videos are just the beginning.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by ethbr0 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @09:57PM (#29930104)
Just beginning... since 1979.

https://m.youtube.com/c/thisoldhouse

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by lmm on Friday January 14, 2022 @03:23AM (#29931850)
On-demand makes a huge difference. Most people aren't going to memorize how to fix everything that might go wrong. Youtube lets you search for how to fix something when it breaks.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by ethbr0 on Friday January 14, 2022 @09:36AM (#29934899)
Like a library?
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by lmm on Saturday January 15, 2022 @12:53AM (#29943941)
Like a library with free video that's in your pocket and open 24/7. You don't think that makes a little bit of difference to the practicalities of what happens when e.g. your boiler stops working one evening?
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by toomanyrichies on Thursday January 13, 2022 @06:11PM (#29928327)
Call me delicate, but until AR/VR is advanced enough to shield me from coming into contact with black- and grey-water, I'll stick to paying a pro.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by robertlagrant on Thursday January 13, 2022 @06:29PM (#29928497)
Spoken like someone who is just itching to do their own dentistry.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by thatjoeoverthr on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:49PM (#29928104)
The downvotes are warranted but being “piloted” over the internet is a really interesting idea. There was a similar idea in the Black Mirror Christmas special.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by thorsten11 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:42PM (#29927292)
I guess all the tools in his pickup is not needed then?
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by spullara on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:51PM (#29927383)
They will be but that will be delivered to your home for rental.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by toomanybeersies on Friday January 14, 2022 @12:06AM (#29930787)
At that point, you may as well just get a plumber delivered with the tools too.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by adrianN on Friday January 14, 2022 @01:55AM (#29931368)
Tools tend to be cheaper than trained humans.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by anotherman554 on Friday January 14, 2022 @10:53AM (#29935948)
In this scenario the trained human is being paid to operate a VR device. Instead of paying a human to send you tools and operate a VR device as you do the repair you might as well pay them to fix the thing.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by adrianN on Friday January 14, 2022 @12:55PM (#29937674)
I imagine that you can guide multiple people at the same time.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by spullara on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:47AM (#29976294)
From another country, at scale.
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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by hobbyjogger on Thursday January 13, 2022 @07:01PM (#29928780)
Not affiliated but this AR tech seems promising:

https://carear.com/

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by protomyth on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:24PM (#29927803)
I'm sure the local governments and their inspectors will have a bit of a say in that.

AR/VR does not make one experienced.

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Re:More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest nu... by toomanybeersies on Friday January 14, 2022 @12:05AM (#29930783)
Diagnose and fix things with what? Most people don't own plumbing tools.
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