News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by bsza on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:03AM (#29918431)
I have used public transport since I was 14. I'm twice that age now. I never needed a car to get anywhere.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by em-bee on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:15AM (#29918529)
i grew up in europe without a car. when i moved to san diego i thought, that's it, i'll finally have to learn how to drive.

but i didn't. i made sure that i lived somewhere with a direct bus to work and it turned out to be fine. same in los angeles later. also auckland, nz.

with that experience i concluded that i won't need a car, ever. it is all about arranging how you live.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by ulimn on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:22AM (#29918586)
Let's inform the other few billions of humans on Earth to move closer to bus stops.

Some people act so entitled... Not everyone has the same circumstances and infrastructure around them. Go to a poor part of eastern Europe. My mother has 2 buses to the nearest city in an entire day... (Not mentioning it takes like 5-6x more time.)

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by adrianN on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:37AM (#29918723)
You're commenting in a discussion about changing the infrastructure to be less car centric so that more people can live without having a car.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by ulimn on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:46AM (#29918803)
I was directly replying to a specific comment. My comment is not really about the article.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by avianlyric on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:28AM (#29918640)
Cars aren’t exactly cheap either. Why should we force every human to own a $1000 asset, and feed it with oil every week, just to participate is basic society?

Why is building more bus stops, more metro stops, more train stops, more bike lanes, so terrible? And how is forcing car ownership better?

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by ulimn on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:47AM (#29918817)
Of course improving infrastructure to support better public transport would be a good thing. But I also think urbanization in itself is a big part of the problem. Most of the hate on cars comes from people living in big cities (my own observation).
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by aronpye on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:36AM (#29918716)
An annual London travel card is £2,568, and that only lets you travel around London. So why should be instead force people to buy something more expensive and less useful than a car?
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by adrianN on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:39AM (#29918745)
An annual Berlin travel card is about 720€, I believe it's about the same in Paris. An annual Vienna travel card is 365€. At least in Berlin car ownership correlates very strongly with household income. The majority of poor households don't have access to a car, whereas rich households have multiple cars.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by ratww on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:09AM (#29918991)
> An annual Berlin travel card is about 720€

Or 480€ if you get it trough your employer, which amounts to 40€ a month.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by iso1631 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:52AM (#29918854)
Average cost of owning a car in the UK is more than that, especially in London where there is limited land

And very few people have a travelcard for the entire city, just you payg on your phone/watch/card for what you use. Unless you literally are crossing London 10 times a week an annual travel card is meaningless.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by multjoy on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:22AM (#29919074)
Ackshually, an annual Z1-3 travel card (other zones are available) costs the same as 40 weeks at the weekly cap (£43.50 vs £1740).

If your weekly travel sees you routinely hitting the cap then a travel card may represent better value.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by iso1631 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @06:05AM (#29919354)
Very few people travel zone 1-3 enough to hit a weekly cap, even before covid, hence very few annual travelcards were sold in London.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by avianlyric on Thursday January 13, 2022 @09:15AM (#29920934)
I used to spend close to £3k a year on petrol commuting, I then need to pay insurance, MOT and road tax on top of that to run a car. All of that is ignoring the £14/day congestion charge (that’s another £3.5k/year for those in the back).

The annual london travel card is much cheaper than operating a car. Not to mention public transport is london is an order of magnitude faster than car for most intra-city journeys.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by iso1631 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:51AM (#29918846)
There's only 1.4 billion cars in the world, with 300 million of them in the US, so "billions" is a somewhat odd statement.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by watwut on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:29AM (#29918643)
Alternative option is to build more frequent bus stops.

Also, poor Eastern Europe people use more public transport, vause cars are more expensive.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by em-bee on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:12AM (#29919011)
i have travelled eastern europe extensively and lived there too. public transport in most places is better than the US.

a similar location in the US would have no busses at all.

remote places exist. if you live there you may need a car. but that doesn't translate to needing a car everywhere.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by Aldqueath on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:20AM (#29918572)
i live in a rural area with zero public transportation and would have a very hard time doing anything in nearby town if there was nowhere to park my car.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by avianlyric on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:31AM (#29918664)
But you don’t need to park your car right next to the shop you’re visiting.

You could park your car near a metro stop, or train station on the edge of the city and use public transport to complete your journey.

That way city dwellers don’t need to sacrifice huge amounts of space for cars they don’t use, along with dealing with the consequences of urban heat islands. And you don’t need to spend you life sat in traffic because there will never be enough roads in major cities for everyone to travel by car.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by iso1631 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:56AM (#29918894)
Parking lot 2 miles out of town, with plenty of electric bikes you can take into town (And the other way have bikes with trailers to get back to the car)

Get rid of cars in town, leave a few single-lane roads with a 10mph limit for deliveries etc at specific times.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by chongli on Thursday January 13, 2022 @06:09AM (#29919385)
What about all your groceries? Your wife at the fertility clinic? Little Sally at the community pool? Grandpa at the doctor’s office? Bikes for everyone and a little cart for the groceries?

What if grandpa walks with a cane and your wife is 9 months pregnant? What if it’s below freezing and there’s 8 inches of snow on the ground? All of this to cut out a handful of parking spaces for a town of 500 in the middle of the Great Plains?

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by avianlyric on Thursday January 13, 2022 @09:12AM (#29920897)
Electric bikes and electric tricycles solve your accessibility problem. As for snow, do the same think you do for cars, plough your bike paths and grit them. It’ll be quicker and cheaper than ploughing and gritting roads because bike paths are physically much smaller to serve the same number of people.

Or you take a half way approach, only have accessibility spaces in town, so those unable to use a bike, or similar small personal transport device, can drive and park.

As for groceries, we solved that a long time ago. They’re called cargo bikes, you can even get electric versions. Great for filling up with groceries and children.

Also we’re not talking about towns of 500 in the great planes. We’re talking about towns and cities of thousands to millions of people. You would have be an either an idiot or trying to be deliberately obtuse to assume this discussion is talking about villages in arse end of nowhere.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by chongli on Thursday January 13, 2022 @11:33AM (#29922708)
The bike paths are small now because hardly anyone uses them. If everyone and their mother was riding bikes around everywhere they’d have to be a lot bigger.

Furthermore, I think you’re really underestimating what it’s like to live in a cold northern place during the winter. There are snowstorms that go on for hours and hours and you need to plough and salt the roads hourly just for cars. Bikes are A LOT less tolerant of poor conditions so it would be even worse. Not to mention the fact that people like to be comfortable so nobody’s going to want to ride a bike in a blizzard. If a city tried to force everyone to use bikes then people would move away.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by avianlyric on Thursday January 13, 2022 @01:45PM (#29924848)
> The bike paths are small now because hardly anyone uses them. If everyone and their mother was riding bikes around everywhere they’d have to be a lot bigger.

A bike path capable of taking 200 bikes / hour is always going to be smaller than a road that can take 200 cars / hour. Bikes are physically smaller, you can fit plenty of them into the footprint of a single car.

> Furthermore, I think you’re really underestimating what it’s like to live in a cold northern place during the winter. There are snowstorms that go on for hours and hours and you need to plough and salt the roads hourly just for cars.

Most of the world doesn’t live in these locations. If your city is really so bad that it impossible to move around without a car, then stick with a car. Doesn’t change the fact that most places are perfectly compatible with bikes.

> Not to mention the fact that people like to be comfortable so nobody’s going to want to ride a bike in a blizzard.

Wear a thick coat. There are plenty of places where that have blizzards and the majority of trips are made by bike.

> If a city tried to force everyone to use bikes then people would move away.

There’s more to a city than just the number of cars in it. There are plenty of cities that already punish car driver heavily. Their populations still grow, their economies still grow. Providing enough roads and space for everyone to drive is not a requirement for a successful city, arguably the opposite is true. The worlds largest mega cities have the best public transport, and some of the most punishing and expensive to use road infrastructure. Just look at cities like Tokyo, London and Paris.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by FpUser on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:32AM (#29918669)
And because of that everybody else has to do the same. Seems to be very understanding and tolerant approach.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by bsza on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:37AM (#29918724)
1. The average car occupancy is 1.5 persons per vehicle.

2. The total parking area in NYC adds up to TWELVE Central Parks.

3. Cars are a leading cause of death by accident in the world.

4. Driving a car for 1 hour reduces your life expectancy by 20 minutes.

5. They emit toxic fumes and greenhouse gases.

6. Car tires shed microplastics, which might be even more harmful than the toxic fumes they emit.

7. This article.

Now please tell me, what tolerance do these glorified killing machines deserve?

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by FpUser on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:46AM (#29918799)
Not gonna tell you anything. You obviously have you mind made up and I do not really care. I have car and use it for my benefit. That's all that matters to me.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by bsza on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:14AM (#29919023)
Tragedy of the commons.
Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by kqr on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:46AM (#29918802)
> 4. Driving a car for 1 hour reduces your life expectancy by 20 minutes.

Surely driving a car for 60 minutes ought to reduce your life expectancy by something like 59 minutes, at least -- much like anything you do for 60 minutes.

I'm not just trying to be funny, there's a point here: you'll say "yeah, but it's 20 minutes more than otherwise" and I'll ask "so what is this otherwise?"

Obviously, if you compare to riding an ultralight airplane for 60 minutes, I think the car is going to be better – especially in bad weather. So what's the comparison for this number?

If you're just comparing demographics, I'm forced to point out that correlation is not, in general, direct causation. We might just be observing something else that happens to affect both car usage and life expectancy.

(To be clear, I'm doing this to find the steel man of your argument. I dislike car-centric infrastructure as much as anyone, but I wouldn't want to use weak arguments.)

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by bsza on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:08AM (#29918985)
Your life expectancy is how old you will likely be when you'll die. It doesn't go down when you do something harmless for 60 minutes, you just... get 60 minutes older ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ So yeah, what this means is you lose 80 minutes every hour.

> So what's the comparison for this number?

In one column you have the age a person died, in another one you have the estimated time they spent driving during their life. Not a rigorous proof of causation, but I mean... which part of the dataset would you like to be in?

Depending on situation, this might be acceptable to some when no other option takes less than 133% more time. But it is something you should definitely take into account. It is also kind of unfair to interpret it like this because cars can screw up traffic for other vehicles too, like traffic jams hinder public transport in my city on a regular basis.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by butlerm on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:10AM (#29918996)
> Surely driving a car for 60 minutes ought to reduce your life expectancy by something like 59 minutes, at least

If that were true, a child born with a life expectancy of eighty years would be dead by age forty. Life expectancy is measured in terms of projected age at death, not years remaining to live. An ordinary benign activity should not change your life expectancy very much, almost by definition.

Re:To stop building heat islands, stop overbuilding parking ... by chongli on Thursday January 13, 2022 @06:18AM (#29919451)
a child born with a life expectancy of eighty years would be dead by age forty

I would not expect a child who drives 24 hours a day, 7 days a week — from birth — to live much past the age of forty.

If, on the other hand, you commute one hour per day for five days a week for twenty years that works out to about 217 days or just under 2/3 of a year of lost life expectancy. Is it nothing? Absolutely not. But it’s not as absurd as it would seem.