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Re:Oh, 2022 by stickfigure on Sunday January 09, 2022 @04:44PM (#29867612)
"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space."

(RIP Douglas Adams)

Re:Oh, 2022 by Syonyk on Sunday January 09, 2022 @05:26PM (#29867958)
Space is hugely, vastly, mind-bogglingly big.

Useful low orbital shells around the Earth are an awful lot smaller. They're still big, like the sky is big, but airplanes do manage to, at least somewhat regularly, collide with each other "in the middle of nowhere" (most midairs are around airports, since there are a lot of airplanes heading in and out of them).

Aircraft debris, however, falls out of the sky in short order. Orbital debris doesn't.

The probability of an initial collision is fairly low, but once you have a few, or someone decides to show off their new ASAT weaponry (which is functionally a satellite collision, just one of them only having been in space for a short while), you now have flak that won't go away, moving in all directions at orbital velocity. That, then, has the potential to start causing all sorts of problems, and once that's taken out a few more satellites with orbital-energy impacts, you start having a real problem.

Will it happen? Those invested in littering certain useful orbital shells with satellites claim not. We'll see.

Re:Oh, 2022 by Qub3d on Sunday January 09, 2022 @05:32PM (#29867999)
Kessler syndrome is definitely a problem.

I've heard SpaceX claims to deal with it by putting their satellites in an orbit that requires periodic boosting to stay put -- if they don't, satellites decay and de-orbit after a few years.

The plan is, I think, to regularly retire (de-orbit) and replace these satellites so they can continuously improve the design, and as a nice side-effect any collisions or otherwise misbehaving objects will at least stop being a problem after a known maximum span of time.

Re:Oh, 2022 by aaronblohowiak on Sunday January 09, 2022 @06:52PM (#29868759)
Another benefit is latency
Re:Oh, 2022 by vikingerik on Sunday January 09, 2022 @07:04PM (#29868859)
And the birthday problem applies; the probability of a collision goes up quadratically. If you have N objects, you've got N^2/2 pairs that could collide.
Re:Oh, 2022 by stickfigure on Sunday January 09, 2022 @07:26PM (#29869045)
Low earth orbit (where Starlink and the ISS are) actually has a fair amount of atmospheric drag. Random google searching suggests an inert Starlink satellite (or fragments of one) would come down in 5-10 years.
Re:Oh, 2022 by Syonyk on Sunday January 09, 2022 @07:36PM (#29869106)
That's the claim made, yes.

Now, how many other satellites are likely to get hit in "5-10 years" of flak flying around at orbital velocities? It's nice if your goal is to say "Well, it probably won't render space useless forever..." - but that assumes one collision, and no ongoing collisions. If it's "5-10 years per collision," and each new one resets the 5-10 years timeframe, well, there's a lot of stuff up there that can make a mess.

Unfortunately, the low orbital shells are also "everywhere." It's not like geosync orbits where if you Kessler them, well... not going to have geosync stuff anymore, but you can still use other orbits. If you Kessler LEO shells, you pretty much have a high risk of anything you try to send to space getting blasted on the way up. It doesn't take much of a bit of debris, at orbital speeds, to trash your booster and make you have a bad day. I guarantee a bolt at 17,000 mph will do some damage (typical LEO velocities) - that's about ~22x the speed of sound in the atmosphere, depending on altitude.

If there are tens of thousands of things up there and you start things colliding and blowing up, you've basically put a defensive shell around the earth for a century, if not longer, by the time all the satellites get fragged and the debris eventually comes down.

Re:Oh, 2022 by Buttons840 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @08:03PM (#29869297)
> If it's "5-10 years per collision," and each new one resets the 5-10 years timeframe

It's not.

The concern is that unwanted collisions will become common enough that satellites break down or are completely destroyed within months. There will never be enough debris that we can't fly through LEO.

Re:Oh, 2022 by Sebb767 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:09PM (#29869751)
> There will never be enough debris that we can't fly through LEO.

Flying through and flying through safely are very different things. With tens of thousands of objects in and below LEO and (presumably) increasing flights to orbit, it's only a matter of time until a rocket gets taken down. It doesn't require a particularly large piece for an involuntary update to your deorbiting plans.

Re:Oh, 2022 by klyrs on Sunday January 09, 2022 @08:11PM (#29869360)
Therein lies the birthday paradox: the frequency of collisions among n bodies grows quadratically; but the probability of a one-time passerby being involved in those collisions only grows linearly.
Re:Oh, 2022 by runarberg on Sunday January 09, 2022 @07:34PM (#29869103)
Yes, space is big. Lower earth orbit is still very big. However if you have dozens of operators, each with thousands of satiates making multiple round the world trips. The chances of a specific satellite colliding perhaps is tiny (given how big space is). However the chances of one of the thousands colliding with any of the other thousands over any of their orbital periods increases exponentially as the number of satellites increases.
Re:Oh, 2022 by Syonyk on Sunday January 09, 2022 @07:58PM (#29869268)
Tens of thousands.

> There are currently over 1,600 Starlink satellites in orbit, and that number will continue to grow; SpaceX has filed paperwork for up to 42,000 satellites for the constellation.

https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-internet-satellites-la...

They're aware of the risk of collisions, but toss in a few more vendors trying for the same size, and you can have potentially hundreds of thousands of satellites in the shells. They're big, but they're not that big.

Re:Oh, 2022 by runarberg on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:11PM (#29869773)
What worries me personally is that they are aware and simply don’t care. Our current climate catastrophe is a testament that big business can be completely aware of an impending disaster, but still ignore it while profits are showing.
Re:Oh, 2022 by coldtea on Sunday January 09, 2022 @07:23PM (#29869019)
Since space debris in the satellite zone is already a problem, that's not a solution.
Re:Oh, 2022 by stickfigure on Sunday January 09, 2022 @07:36PM (#29869109)
There isn't just one satellite zone. Starlink satellites are about 4 times closer to earth than than they are to the geosynchronous Hughesnet satellites. The starlink satellites are close enough that even after full Gravity-style Kessler syndrome, you could just wait several years and start over from scratch.

Obviously that is something to avoid, but it's not like we're filling up a non-renewable resource in low earth orbit. It cleans itself naturally.

Re:Oh, 2022 by admash on Sunday January 09, 2022 @08:03PM (#29869299)
Note: Starlink orbits at an altitude of 340-350 miles . Hughesnet’s geosynchronous orbit has an altitude of 22,000 miles. That is over 62 times higher, not 4.

FWIW.

Re:Oh, 2022 by stickfigure on Monday January 10, 2022 @12:23AM (#29870965)
I apologize, you are quite correct! Not quite sure what my brain was doing there, I was looking at those same numbers and somehow typed 4.
Re:Oh, 2022 by mekkkkkk on Monday January 10, 2022 @09:16AM (#29875086)
Sorry if this a stupid question, but in the event of mass collisions a la Kessler, wouldn't some percentage of the debris get stuck in higher orbits? The kinetic force of collisions at those speeds seems pretty significant.