News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by jollybean on Thursday January 06, 2022 @09:41AM (#29824056)
Central Banking has been one of the most powerful and liberating achievements of civilization.

And you now have the 'freedom' to strike and sue your employer, women have the 'freedom' to actually have a job, you have the 'freedom' to attend college which only about 5% did at the time, you have the 'freedom' to do almost anything in life.

And what 'freedoms' have you lost?

Well, there's more taxation.

And you have to sell your car to a Black man if he wants to buy it from you.

And you have to prove drugs work before selling them.

You have to pay workers a minimum wage, and make sure they don't die on the job.

What other 'freedoms' were are you keen to regain?

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by didericis on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:05AM (#29824380)
Can you explain why the freedoms you mention are the result primarily of central banking and not social and technological change?

The key freedom lost via central banking (at least irresponsible central banking) is the freedom of those in the future to do anything other than meet debt obligations.

Debt and credit is obviously necessary, and making money easily accessible and keeping markets liquid is a good thing, but if debt obligations grow too large, people increasingly forfeit their future productivity and the future of their children’s productivity to paying interest.

No one can enjoy increased freedoms if they are spending all their time paying off individual and collective interest.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by md_ on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:31AM (#29824779)
I’m confused. If you mean public debt, doesn’t central banking free the public from meeting debt obligations when those obligations are denominated in the national currency?

Countries can and do issue public debt in other currencies. If we all used gold or bitcoin, there’s no reason to think public debt would be lower. But the obligation to pay it back would, in a sense, be harder to dodge.

It’s worth noting, as an aside, that the trend line on cost of servicing public debt in the US has been downward (though I would expect this to change): https://www.piie.com/research/piie-charts/us-debt-has-increa....

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by MR4D on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:20AM (#29825502)
> If we all used gold or bitcoin, there’s no reason to think public debt would be lower.

For reference, public debt tends to be higher when based in currencies that can be more easily debased. This was true in Roman times as it is now.

I’m on my phone, so I’d have to look up the book, but it’s well documented.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by md_ on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:22AM (#29825544)
Entirely possible, but defaults tend to be higher when debt is in a currency that cannot be debased, for somewhat obvious reasons.
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by jacobr1 on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:47AM (#29825912)
There is a constraint the prevents (some) countries from more frequent debasement: if you debase your currency, then lenders will increasingly require that future debt be issued in an external currency. And even if you find lenders, the purchasing power provided in the debased currency remains constrained by external trade in non-debased currencies.
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by MR4D on Thursday January 06, 2022 @12:20PM (#29826455)
You make a very good point.

I should have noted that this applies only when it’s your own currency.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by User23 on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:48AM (#29825034)
The primary purposes of central banking are to privatize seigniorage[1] revenue and increase bankers' ability to control politicians. The former is achieved through the Primary Dealer system and the latter should be self-explanatory. Needless to say, since most spending is electronic transactions, the seigniorage revenue is very nearly the entire face value of the created instrument.

It's a blatantly undemocratic power grab, effectively allowing a consortium of private banks to limit Congress's power of the purse. Or at least that was the theory. As we're seeing now, that one putative upside is nonexistent and the Fed is happy to cooperate with Treasury to spend trillions a year. The rentier class appears to be consoling itself with massive asset inflation, while still banking the seigniorage.

The United States could just as easily once again fund all of its spending by creating new U.S. Notes[2] (perhaps without the public debt clause) and then control inflation by extinguishing those liabilities through taxation.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/seigniorage.asp

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Note

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by md_ on Thursday January 06, 2022 @12:20PM (#29826445)
It seems like you're defining "central banking" in relation to the independence (or maybe ownership of) the central bank. That doesn't seem correct to me.

China has a central bank, but it's fully publicly owned and is not politically independent of the CCP. The ECB, in comparison, is owned by the central banks of constituent banks. And on the other extreme, the Swiss National Bank is publicly traded and a minority of its shares are privately held (i.e., not by governments). (Perhaps related or perhaps not, the Swiss Franc also has historically had very high trust and very low inflation.)

My point is, there are multiple flavors of "central bank" ownership and independence; it seems odd to argue that the primary purpose of central banking is to allow private bankers to violate political oversight when, in some cases, the bank is fully public and not politically independent. Conversely, some examples of significantly more private central banks than the Fed seem to show a history of good management in the public interest.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by selimthegrim on Thursday January 06, 2022 @01:08PM (#29827284)
The UK has plenty of private banks printing notes - it doesn't seem to hurt them.
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by Aunche on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:34AM (#29824812)
> irresponsible central banking

Would you also consider triple bypass surgery done on morbidly obese patient as irresponsible? It enables bad behavior and arguably the patient may be better off dead than living in a life of pain, but it's undeniable that emergency heart surgery is a good thing.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by pzo on Thursday January 06, 2022 @01:28PM (#29827667)
Current situation looks for me more like a surgeon doing this triple bypass, and also keep selling junk food and cigarettes to this patient on another shift.
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by Aunche on Thursday January 06, 2022 @01:36PM (#29827789)
How exactly the Federal Reserve selling junk food and cigarettes? Nothing they do is pressuring Congress to increase our deficit.
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by imtringued on Friday January 07, 2022 @04:35PM (#29845155)
The problem, the reason why we don't have a free market economy, is that the saver gets to decide how much debt there is.

The saver gets to decide whether to lend out his money, to spend it or to simply keep it forever. The money is no longer circulating within the economy, which means someone, usually the government, is forced to borrow the money back into the economy at an interest rate that is simply not sustainable.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by jollybean on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:49AM (#29825042)
" why the freedoms you mention are the result primarily of central banking and not social and technological change?"

I didn't mean to imply that.

Most of those things didn't come from Central Banking.

That said, modern finance has 'enabled everything' just like having a highly literate education 'enables everything' as well.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by toomanydoubts on Thursday January 06, 2022 @12:13PM (#29826339)
They have also enabled commercial banks loaning other people money irresponsibly and getting obscenous bailouts when the loan takers default because "the banks are too big to fail". What a great world to live in.
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by toolz on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:24AM (#29824656)
> What other 'freedoms' were are you keen to regain?

For me I'd like to not pay money for the "privilege" of having a central organization constantly and unapologetically spy on me.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by __MatrixMan__ on Thursday January 06, 2022 @09:55AM (#29824235)
It would be nice if the cost of rungs in the social later (housing, education, etc) wasn't so high that only certain kinds of people could achieve them.

Many of the "your not allowed to do that"s of the past are still in place for entire neighborhoods, only the words changed.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by jollybean on Thursday January 06, 2022 @09:59AM (#29824293)
In 1922 only 5% of people went to University - now 50% go on to post secondary which is largely due to cost and opportunity.

Only about 50% finished HS - now it's 95%.

Doctors were not very affordable by anyone - now it's >90%.

Most people didn't have running water and electricity yet now it's almost 100%.

The only thing that's not as nice as 'real estate' - housing was cheap, but the houses were crap, and often you were isolated.

If you want to go out of major US urban area, and build a small home to 1925 standards, then it's affordable.

But if you are young, then I am actually sympathetic to you: education and housing costs are 'worse' now than in then 1990's. Those are the two things I will say Gen Z 'has it hard' with. That, and having to grow up where everyone has social media, which is not a social benefit, it's dystopian if you ask me.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by scottLobster on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:16AM (#29824516)
All of those facts are meaningless without context.

Higher education is far more necessary for even a middle class existence than it was in 1922, and the middle class is getting less and less affordable. One of my grandfathers worked a family farm. My dad was able to grind his way out of the lower classes by working at Friendly's and other odd jobs to pay for college (up to and including his PhD). My father in law's uncle was a high school dropout who started showing people around at the local hardware store and was such a good salesperson the owner hired him after a few weeks. None of those are possible for most Americans these days (good luck pulling the leave-it-to-beaver "prove my value to the local store owner" at Home Depot or Walmart).

US citizens are now regularly advised to take Uber to the hospital if they can survive the trip, as it avoids the cost of an ambulance, which is often over a thousand dollars in a country where most can't afford a $500 emergency. I'm not sure how that qualifies as "affordable", and certainly not affordable to 90%+. Granted this is primarily an American issue.

More important to me than the quality of the house is the quality of the school district that it's in (see previous remarks about the modern necessity of education). I can fix/improve a house, I can't fix/improve schooling short of private school, which would probably be more expensive than fixing a house over the long term. Good look finding an affordable house in a good school district near any major metropolitan area with jobs.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by Retric on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:10AM (#29825357)
A 1922s “middle class” experience is affordable for a most Americans today. As in shelter with heat, phone service, and electric lights but no appliances, no car, minimal access to effective healthcare etc.

Upward mobility is still available and just as rare. The health, intelligence, and drive that allowed someone in 1922 to better themselves are the same things that still allow someone to better themselves in 2022. It’s not easy, but it was never easy. Just look at how many people in 1922 where held back by the color of their skin.

As to getting a job at Walmart, have you ever actually applied? Their standards are incredibly lax.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by scottLobster on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:49AM (#29825951)
So? A middle class experience from 1622 is also affordable for most Americans today, and now we don't have to worry about raids from the natives! Clearly we have no right to complain /s

I'm not arguing things are equivalent to 1922 on an absolute scale, but on a relative scale they're closer than they were in the recent past. The prosperity of the previous century has shifted the goal posts for what defines upper, middle and lower class. But after a long period of shifting the goal posts in a positive direction, we've had three or four decades of things shifting in the opposite direction, and that trend appears to be accelerating for the moment.

As for upward mobility, that largely only exists for people with college degrees these days. And even then only a few select degrees are really worth anything. And college costs are insanely inflated compared to where they were in 1980, let alone 1922. Is it possible to better oneself in 2022? Sure, but I'd argue there were much more opportunities for middle class people just 40 years ago. A Unionized coal miner with experience could make an upper middle class salary without the burden of higher education that costs as much as a house. Ditto for many factory jobs.

A job at Walmart making minimum wage that hasn't been adjusted for inflation for decades does not have anything resembling the same purchasing power as a minimum wage job 60 years ago. Walmart jobs are notorious for requiring food stamps despite working full time hours.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by Retric on Thursday January 06, 2022 @02:08PM (#29828304)
A higher percentage of Americans are going to collage in 2020. They are also graduating with more debt, so is it more or less affordable? That’s a more complex question than it might appear as students are in many cases choosing a very expensive education when more economical options are available.

It’s similar to how new cars in 2020 are both substantially more expensive on average but also of vastly higher quality. In both cases the cheapest options represent a tiny slice of the overall market suggesting cost is generally less an imposition by outside forces than a choice.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by Retric on Thursday January 06, 2022 @07:19PM (#29832764)
Ex: Great Bastion Collage in state tuition is under 11k not per semester but to get a 4 year degree. Out of state is twice that, but you probably have some equivalent in your state. They even have minimum additional requirements for students without a high school diploma or GED to get a collage degree.
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by Ancapistani on Thursday January 06, 2022 @02:10PM (#29828351)
I'm explicitly not replying to the meat of your comment, because I don't feel like I have anything to add to the productive discussion in this thread - which, by the way, I'm really enjoying reading :)

That said, this stood out to me:

> A job at Walmart making minimum wage [...]

According to Glassdoor[1], a retail cashier at Walmart with no experience earns an average of $22,049 / year. Assuming 50 weeks @ 40 hours per week, that's $11.05 / hour.

That does not include cash bonuses or profit sharing, which Glassdoor says adds another ~$1k.

Indeed.com[2] shows the average wage for a Walmart cashier is $10.56 - so we're at least in the right ballpark above.

My own experience at Walmart was unloading trucks from 4pm-1am the summer after I graduated high school (2002). I made $7.25 / hour then, when the minimum wage was $5.15.

Trying to build a life on that kind of money isn't easy, and I'm not trying to say that it is; I do want to point out that even Walmart doesn't pay minimum wage as a rule.

That's not to say there aren't other "tricks" that employers use, like limiting hours to prevent employees from qualifying from full-time benefits and such. There are.

The minimum wage in 1982 was $3.25. Today it's $7.25. The purchasing power of the minimum wage has certainly decreased, but I strongly suspect that many more businesses paid minimum wage in 1982 than 2022.

McDonald's in my town of <15k people pays $13/hr with no experience, with a $500 signing bonus and a guaranteed $1/hr raise at six and twelve months. The largest manufacturing employer here produce stamped sheet metal parts, and they have a large sign and banners lining the road claiming $18/hr, a $1,500 signing bonus, and fully paid family benefits. My California-based "healthtech" company employer doesn't even have health insurance as good as theirs.

1: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Walmart-Guest-Service-Team-...

2: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Walmart/salaries

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by msikora on Thursday January 06, 2022 @02:06PM (#29828278)
USA is pretty dystopian. I'm an immigrant from the EU, and like most of us here I work in tech where the wages and benefits are very good (wages quite a bit better than even the richer EU countries and benefits on par I would say). But for the lower middle class and below it absolutely sucks in the US compared to most other countries with similar levels of development...
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by elhudy on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:11AM (#29825373)
Further, healthcare costs are only “affordable” insofar as we are adding them to our country’s growing debt via medicare.
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by __MatrixMan__ on Thursday January 06, 2022 @04:05PM (#29830143)
All of these improvements, numerically speaking, and yet my wife regularly has classes of 40 where none of the students have parents that went to college, a quarter of them need glasses that they can't afford, and an eighth is homeless.

The size of the group that benefits from modernization is indeed growing, as your numbers point out, but if you're not in that group you're just as stuck as you've ever been.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by mbg721 on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:13AM (#29824476)
I would argue, as many would, that a high-school graduate now is much worse off now than a high-school dropout a century ago. Jobs are much more specialized, you can't rely on working on "the family farm", and the prestige of a high-school diploma has tanked to "You don't have this, what's wrong with you??"
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by mwint on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:05AM (#29825292)
> And you have to sell your car to a Black man if he wants to buy it from you.

Never thought about this before: Suppose I’m Black, respond to a Craigslist ad for a $10k car for sale by owner, and am refused for my skin color. What law do I or the state prosecute the seller under?

Most of the anti-discrimination laws I know of apply to companies, usually companies with more than N employees.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by tlholaday on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:45AM (#29825886)
> What law do I or the state prosecute the seller under?

Start your research with Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by mwint on Thursday January 06, 2022 @02:01PM (#29828197)
https://www.eeoc.gov/statutes/title-vii-civil-rights-act-196... - looks like this is all about employment, and even then only applies to those employing more than N employees:

> The term "employer" means a person engaged in an industry affecting commerce who has fifteen or more employees [...]

I suppose the root of my question is this: Where is the law stating that an individual cannot act with prejudice against another individual, outside of an employment context? I've always assumed such a law exists, but never asked exactly where it is.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by selimthegrim on Thursday January 06, 2022 @01:09PM (#29827301)
Probably more relevant to dealerships
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by thegrimmest on Thursday January 06, 2022 @12:47PM (#29826876)
I'd be keen to be able to employ people without the government intervening in negotiations (minimum wage, various employment laws, etc.). I don't think the government has any place deciding what I can and can't offer. I also would like to be able to use my own judgement when hiring people, without having to worry about proving (the negative) that I'm not being discriminatory.

Workers have always had the freedom to strike. And employers should have the freedom to terminate striking employees. I don't see the need for regulation here. The "freedom" to attend college has created a mountain of student debt and an overeducated workforce. I fail to see the benefit.

All in all, directly, I'd like to live in a society where people are entitled to only what they can negotiate for, not more. And one that does not strive to protect people from the consequences of their own misfortune or inadequacy.

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by pjbk on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:49AM (#29825950)
Interesting to see how sacrificing some freedoms to give more freedom to others in the short term, eventually enhances your same former freedoms in the medium or long term.
Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by CryptoPunk on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:43AM (#29825869)
There is absolutely nothing liberating about central banking. It is a monopoly on money creation, and that monopoly is enforced through an apparatus of violence (police, courts and prisons, used to compel compliance).

It leads to a small elite being in control of trillions of dollars in national capital allocations every year, with virtually no democratic oversight.

It leads to financial institutions capturing 42% of corporate profits since 1973, with all of the growth in wealth inequality that goes along with that.

It leads to gigantic corporate welfare programs, like the government mortgage guarantee program, where financial institutions buy $1.5 trillion worth of government guaranteed mortgage backed securities - where profits are 100% privatized, and risk is 100% socialized - every year.

>>And you now have the 'freedom' to strike and sue your employer,

You always had that freedom. Now you have the power to get the state to force the employer to keep you employed, and not replace you, while you strike.

This power has given public sector unions total control over public finances.

For example, New York has nearly 300,000 unionized public sector employees receiving over $100,000 a year:

https://archive.md/JnJQY

In California, emergency workers can retire at 55 with 90% of their pension, that averages $108,000 per year.

California now has $1 trillion in pension obligations for its unionized public sector workers. That is where all the social welfare spending is going.

>>Well, there's more taxation.

Yes, the state now forces you, under pain of imprisonment, to work 40% of the year to pay a bloated bureaucracy.

>>And you have to sell your car to a Black man if he wants to buy it from you.

And every one has to suffer higher costs, and less advancement, as a specialized caste of anti-discrimination lawyers extract billions of dollars per year from corporations for their failure to comply with impossible-to-comply-with anti-discrimination laws [1] while forcing the private sector to 1. spend billions more in "anti-racism" training, that includes lessons on the supposed omnipresence of "white privilege" [2] and 2. institute affirmative action programs, that waste resources and lead to less competent work forces, respectively.

>>And you have to prove drugs work before selling them.

Yes, you need the approval of a centralized regulatory gatekeeper, which is often incompetent, and prevents people from accessing life-saving medical products/services in a timely manner [3][4] or denies people access to a vaccine due to a risk from side effects that is orders of magnitude lower than the risk the vaccine mitigates. [5]

>>women have the 'freedom' to actually have a job,

Women had jobs back then. The jobs available to women have improved due to the cultural impact of much higher per capita productivity, which makes people far more independent and assertive.

>>you have the 'freedom' to attend college which only about 5% did at the time, you have the 'freedom' to do almost anything in life.

That is entirely due to higher per capita productivity, which enables more people to be supported through their post-secondary schooling years.

The massive per capita productivity growth seen since 1922 could soon be a thing of the past in the advanced economies, as the growing repressiveness of the state has steadily reduced per capita GDP growth rates over the last several decades, and this trend sees no signs of abatement or reversal.

[1] https://richardhanania.substack.com/p/wokeness-as-saddam-sta...

[2] https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-co...

[3] https://www.propublica.org/article/this-scientist-created-a-...

[4] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de...

[5] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/us/politics/johnson-johns...

Re:What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922) by atlgator on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:19AM (#29825481)
Has Central Banking been liberating or do we only perceive it as such because it has historically aligned with American business and political interests? Would a small South American country being forced to sell it's natural resources or lose it's borrowing power agree? Would Middle Eastern countries that tried to form the petro dollar and were met with endless wars agree?