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Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by __MatrixMan__ on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:08PM (#29814957)
I've never used Leetcode, but it keeps coming up here. I've been interviewer a lot lately and I keep trying to find ways to filter out the candidates that care more about interview prep than solving real problems.

Is this a nonstandard perspective?

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by fnordpiglet on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:00PM (#29815640)
I’ve been doing technical interviews for decades and have gotten good feedback from candidates about my technique. I have a small number of questions that are nearly impossible to have prepared for - one for instance is finding the median in a large dataset using map reduce. The question is open enough there’s a lot of solutions that are expensive, a lot that are dead ends, and one that’s pretty clever. The key is I let them investigate different possible solutions and give them guidance as they butt against expensive or impractical solutions and guide them to the answers I’ve heard over the years that work best. Because I ask the same questions over and over again I can tell how people treat the problem and try to solve it. But since it’s not a typical interview question no one is prepared to answer it off the cuff. Ultimately my goal is to assess whether the candidate can understand the problem, understand dead ends when I point it out, understand how to pivot to another approach, and understand how to interpret hints in a positive direction. IMO these are the important skills for a professional problem solver working in a team.

I wouldn’t use automated screening tools. These tools select for irrelevant criteria in my opinion, and are mostly useful if as an interviewer you’re too lazy or too incompetent to formulate your own questions that tell you whether a person can solve problems and interact well in a group problem solving situation. But I’m an oldster so YMMV.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by ummonk on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @07:58PM (#29817643)
I’ve experienced interviews that could be described this way. Nearly impossible problems where the interviewer hints at the right (or preferred) solution and I’m stuck doing a guessing game that’s highly unrepresentative of real life software engineering (since no one in actual work drops hints while holding back their knowledge unless they’re jerks). It’s a terrible experience.

I assume you do a much better job given your positive feedback, but it’s not something that every potential interviewer will replicate well if they try to follow your description.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by brookside on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @10:13PM (#29818835)
I completely agree and see red flags in how the parent describes their interview technique.

Interview questions with one solution "that’s pretty clever" are IMO, bad. Even cliche "easy" fizzbuzz. Ok...so you know modulo.

Rationing out hints towards that "one weird trick" sounds slightly like a cat toying with a struggling mouse.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by drran on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @11:53PM (#29819570)
It's typical experience for a competition.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by aspaceman on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:17PM (#29815051)
I think it's pretty common at small to mid sized companies + startups. Your more "trendy" companies and your F500 companies do the type of Leetcode interview you hear everyone on HN complain about.

It typically looks like a 15 minute phone interview with HR, followed by a lengthy Leetcode/ take home exam (that's auto graded, no humans), a computer form where you input your school, GPA, and courses taken (seriously). All of this info gets turned into a number and then HR takes a sample of the top X and hands it to the hiring manager: "Here are the 'viable' candidates".

The hiring manager then has to (basically) interview the candidate themselves. Ensure they actually have the skills for the position, determine their interest in the role, etc. So this is probably what you're doing right now. Just imagine someone filtered a bunch of your resumes first.

Take with a grain of salt, but I have heard of some folks explicitly getting permission to do hiring outside of HR at said large companies. The kids they get out of undergrad and through HR's Leetcode process are apparently complete garbage. Don't understand C, pointers, memory, or Linux at all. Don't even know what files are.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by toast0 on Thursday January 06, 2022 @01:03AM (#29820029)
> Take with a grain of salt, but I have heard of some folks explicitly getting permission to do hiring outside of HR at said large companies. The kids they get out of undergrad and through HR's Leetcode process are apparently complete garbage. Don't understand C, pointers, memory, or Linux at all. Don't even know what files are.

I've done a lot of interviews, and I just accept that I need to explain what a byte is to the candidates. You'd think people with a programming background would know what they are, but it's not a hard concept, so whatever. I don't really care if they know how to open a file or what a byte is, I want to know if they can describe their output, and then write code that does what they said. And if they can write a loop with a loop in it without going off the rails. Bonus points if they can communicate reasonably throughout. You can teach someone how to use files, and unless you're a C shop, most people don't need to use that much C that they can't learn it when it comes up, if they need to. But it's hard to teach 'make a spec, follow the spec you made' and if you have to teach a programmer how to do nested loops, they aren't a programmer yet. (which is maybe fine, if you're interviewing someone who's only programming adjacent or something)

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by autokad on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:38PM (#29815336)
to get around to the algorithmic portion of the interview process (filling out your GPA and hoping for a recruiter call), try reaching out to the recruiters directly. they only go to that pool when their existing leads runs dry, and they'd often love the opportunity to add some self motivated candidates.

How I got my job is I searched linkedIn for <company name> + recruiter and just added all of them. That alone generated lots of recruiter calls. This was 2018, not sure if things have changed

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by vanusa on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @08:07PM (#29817711)
Don't even know what files are

Which is of course exactly what these companies should expect if their idea of candidate "preparation" consists of sitting in front of a webform and being asked to type in functions, one after another.

Like a rat in a cage.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by cjsplat on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:09PM (#29815755)
The stuff tested by a coding interview won't get to staff level or beyond. Cross functional understanding, product or technology insights, strategic thinking, etc. are necessary.

Lots of people who come up through the ranks only know how to do coding interviews - coding is what they do in their job, it was the interview they passed and it is what they know in depth. These are also the people confused about why their careers stall.

I never used coding for interviews at Google - even for junior engineers I wanted to see if they understood issues beyond their fingertips. Of course there was always a coding interview or two, so that base was covered.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by asiachick on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:50PM (#29816280)
> I never used coding for interviews at Google

Can you explain? AFAIK Google has a set criteria for engineering interviews. 2-3 coding, 1 design, 1 something else. AFAIK if you get asked to do a coding interview you have to ask coding questions. The people who review your interview would not find it acceptable to not do it.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by imron on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @09:35PM (#29818458)
> Can you explain? AFAIK Google has a set criteria for engineering interviews. 2-3 coding, 1 design, 1 something else.

From the parent comment I guess they were the ones doing the design or ‘something else’ interview, with the coding interview or two being covered by someone else.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by colinmhayes on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:19PM (#29815074)
I think Leetcode is a pretty decent way to filter for people who work hard and have at least decent critical thinking skills. I guess FAANGs have concluded 1. it's easier to test for those qualities than it is to test for engineering skills 2. those are the qualities that make a good developer.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by slim109ya on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:58AM (#29825182)
Leetcode is more about learning pattern recognition of the problem category than it is critical thinking.

What started off as "write a binary search" has turned into a massive gate-keeping process to try to select candidates who fit a profile. I'm not sure what that profile is, but I know I don't fit it. I grinded Leetcode for 2 months and failed Google, Facebook, and Amazon. I thought there was some luck involved and decided not to put any more time into it. But, I don't fault others who do.

I do think the large pay increases the candidate pool, so there has to be some form of testing. I just don't think as a senior developer, it assesses my skills.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by colinmhayes on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:30AM (#29825669)
Pattern recognition is critical thinking.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by rzz3 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:51PM (#29815523)
I don’t think it’s problems represent the problems we solve in the real world at all.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by colinmhayes on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:01PM (#29815648)
That's not the point though. Leetcode can't figure out if you're able to do the work today. I think FAANG believes it can figure out whether they'll be able to train you to do the work.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by SirZimzim on Thursday January 06, 2022 @04:09AM (#29821117)
I view it as a way to apply a somewhat relevant filter to a large pool of candidates. It's something coding related with simple appeals such as scalability which makes every engineer quiver at the knees.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by notreallyserio on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:19PM (#29815089)
Candidates are taught by peers and previous experience what to expect in interviews. It wouldn't take more than 1 or 2 failed leetcode interviews for me to start spending significant time on 'em.

I don't know if it's fair to say the candidates care more about prep than solving real problems if they're just reacting to what at least some employers are expecting.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by reaperducer on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:25PM (#29815968)
It depends on what kind of people you're trying to hire.

If you want button-pushers who will keep their heads down and do exactly what they're told, even if it doesn't make sense or is detrimental to the company, then leetcode is a good way to find those people.

If you want actual human beings who are able to think abstractly, critically, and contribute to the team and help the company grow, then look for people who have been working long enough to know that leetcode is a dead end.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by mavelikara on Thursday January 06, 2022 @04:00AM (#29821053)
> If you want actual human beings who are able to think abstractly, critically, and contribute to the team and help the company grow, then look for people who have been working long enough to know that leetcode is a dead end.

I am very against Leetcode style interviews. I promise every candidate interviewed by the org I lead that they won't be asked academic CS trivia.

But, I don't think what you said here is accurate.

If it were true, these other companies where all the critical thinkers have been flocking to would have displaced the FAANGs.

There are good reasons to dislike Leetcode, but your comment reads like sour grapes to me.