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Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @11:30AM (#29759943)
It’s pretty easy to understand when you realize Americans don’t like eachother. If we liked living together we wouldn’t be so car centric, it’s not like the cars built the cities for us. And we keep getting worse. Small towns I drive through now are full of angry people who seem to want to be left alone. It’s incredibly sad.

We are a selfish and community-less people that enjoy the frontier and adventure more than quaint small towns where people have to get along.

There are advantages but in the long run I hate it. And yes I’ve lived everywhere in America. The few that like the more euro model have to pay a 10x premium to live in SF or NYC.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by ben-schaaf on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:07PM (#29760335)
> If we liked living together we wouldn’t be so car centric

It's entirely the other way around, car centric planning results in less community. It's much easier to be angry at the other 2t metal boxes than at your fellow human being.

American cities used to be just like European cities: designed for walking, mixed use developments, small shops, public transportation everywhere. It's only after the delusion of the car being the future was popularized - in large part due to very successful advertising by the automotive industry - that policy was written to heavily subsidise car-centric development to the point of making everything else illegal. There's even real, convicted conspiracies of the automotive industry purposefully buying public transportation just to kill it.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by bobthepanda on Saturday January 01, 2022 @03:38PM (#29762477)
So this is not as black and white as it seems. There are three major pushes that end up pushing people out of the cities.

* the aforementioned highway boom, but this is not enough to actually kickstart the whole thing; most European nations also had a highway boom around this time with much less sprawl

* lending standards. Prior to the Great Depression, banks are wholly in control of mortgage lending. The collapse of the economy also collapses the banking system and the housing market; banks have to foreclose on properties that are no longer worth anything. As part of the bank stabilization efforts, the FHA creates national standards for loans that it will insure. These standards are restricted to single family homes, and to properties without commercial (small businesses have a really high rate of failure). This has the effect of encouraging banks and developers to stampede into single family suburban development; the cost of financing is a lot cheaper because of the Uncle Sam guarantee, and it's a lot more profitable as a result. No other type of property is given this kind of preferential treatment to this extent, and this still more or less persists today.

* desegregation. This is the big one; prior to the civil rights era, suburbs are expanding rapidly, but cities are still growing. The moment Brown vs Board of Ed passes in 1954 all hell breaks loose. The real estate practice of blockbusting gets into full gear, where real estate agents spook the white people out of a neighborhood by having one black family move in; they proceed to buy the houses on the cheap from white people fire selling as fast as possible, and then take advantage of black and minority sellers. Whites move into suburbs in droves, because it's "where the good schools are" without the minorities they used to be legally separated from. And this is a national phenomenon. Even today, we see whites flee school districts with increasing minority populations; they do so even in districts where the minority groups are affluent and educational metrics remain positive, like Cupertino, CA or Johns Creek, GA: https://psmag.com/news/ghosts-of-white-people-past-witnessin...

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @04:24PM (#29762982)
Exactly. I said “don’t like” to avoid making this explicitly about racism but it’s true. And those planners that made these cities people currently complain about had droves of people who “didn’t want to be near other Americans of another color or class” and loved car filled suburbs and strip mall towns.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:34PM (#29760592)
You know I used to believe that for many years and I’ve come to the conclusion that this is just a “bike-city” circle jerk scapegoating Robert Moses in order to ignore our deeper problem: Americans don’t like each-other.

We would have built better cities if we wanted carless communities. But we didn’t and still don’t.

We want this. This is what we like. We are a sick people. And it isn’t Robert Moses and GMs fault, they are a product of us. We weren’t brainwashed we weren’t forced into this. There is no cabal that made it this way. We choose it. The sooner we accept that the sooner we can evaluate real options for change.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:49PM (#29760752)
This just historically inaccurate.

Older US cities have many of the same characteristics as cities in other parts of the world. Those characteristics can vary, from small single-family homes tightly packed into a walkable neighborhood to large scale apartment dwelling with city squares and boulevards nearby.

Americans used to build cities this way. Whether it was Moses or the emergence of a general dislike of each other, or a multitude of other possible reasons, we generally no longer do.

Moreover, many of those older city neighborhoods are considered extremely desirable to live in, even today, so much so that they have become very exclusive areas available only to those with plenty of income or wealth. That doesn't imply that most Americans would necessarily make that choice even if they could, but the continued elevation of housing costs in the best of these "old world" neighborhoods suggests to me that your thesis is at best incomplete and at worst just incorrect.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by pempem on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:34PM (#29761173)
^ this is very accurate.

There are multiple studies and historical accounts documenting exactly this TsunamiFury. Car lobbies are actually clearly tied to many city planning decisions, combined with white flight and corresponding government loans to create suburban communities that essentially cut others out.

Additionally interstate commerce in a comparatively intensely large land mass like the US did create a need for additional transportation, but the sprawl has indeed been very much tied to the factors PaulDavisThe1st and others have pointed out. Its not 'not liking' each other. Its money + racism + poor representation of the populous. Like a lot of things.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @04:11PM (#29762838)
Sure. I’ve studied that for years and I’ve come to the conclusion that is not the root cause. At the end of the day it’s a boogie man people trot out to excuse the fact that they did that and continue to do it together. They let it happen because they wanted it.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by pempem on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:51PM (#29765287)
Hm... fair enough. I have studied this for years and come to the opposite conclusion. Specifically in Geography and Urban and city planning courses.

What studies or books lead you to your conclusion?

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @11:50PM (#29765928)
That people ultimately do what they want. They aren’t brainwashed. Car companies or lobbies don’t build our cities. We build them they way we want them. If we wanted them some other way we would. And most people live in suburban sprawl where they distance themselves from their fellow American — who they don’t particularly like very much.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by pempem on Monday January 03, 2022 @10:16AM (#29781534)
Womp.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:52PM (#29760788)
I don’t understand what you are refuting.

But I live in Pacific Heights, one of the most desirable old world communities in America, and it’s mostly empty and full of ghost capital homes.

People like it for a while but they leave for the suburbs pretty fast and go looking for elbow room away from others. And it’s mostly because the energy under the surface of the beautiful homes is rude, selfish and inconsiderate. From the owners to the workers that come to service the homes. Regardless of class we are really angry people.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:05PM (#29760902)
Pacific Heights is indeed one of the most desirable neighboors, and is very much non-surburban in its nature.

but ...

The current situation in uber-expensive real-estate markets when it comes to high-end housing should not be over-interpreted as having more to say about what most Americans want from the places where they live.

Pacific Heights current situation is also very similar to wealthy old neighborhoods in cities across Europe. London at the very least is full of such examples.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:27PM (#29761090)
also ...

> I don’t understand what you are refuting.

>> We would have built better cities if we wanted carless communities. But we didn’t and still don’t.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by bobthepanda on Saturday January 01, 2022 @03:44PM (#29762549)
I wouldn't say it's an emergence of a general dislike of each other. It was desegregation; the dislike always existed, but before Brown vs Board of Ed and other decisions in the same cities different racial groups lived in different worlds.

Blockbusting was a real phenomenon in which real estate agents would move a black family into the neighborhood to get white families to fire sell their homes, and it worked because they could no longer legally isolate minorities from their children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockbusting

We know that this happens today, even with minority groups that are affluent and do well in education metrics. https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/07/silicon-valley-whit... (And before anyone accuses me of "wokism", the original story was broken by the Wall Street Journal, which is decidedly not a "woke" publication.)

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by orasis on Saturday January 01, 2022 @02:56PM (#29762004)
Rather than they “used to build cities this way”, perhaps it just takes centuries for cities to evolve to a good form.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by dan-robertson on Saturday January 01, 2022 @02:39PM (#29761856)
I’m very unconvinced but this. New Yorkers famously all hate each other yet if you can afford to live in relatively central parts of New York, you don’t need a car. Though New York is still somewhat car-focused. Internationally, London has similar but a slightly milder case of car-dependent sprawl to New York (but people still famously don’t like each other). Swedes are also known for their desire for space and privacy yet they somehow manage to live in cities that don’t follow the North American model. And many Dutch cities used to be going in the direction of the American model (held back by the lower wealth after the war preventing mass car ownership) and only changed direction in the 70s after won’t-somebody-think-of-the-children political campaigning and some very slim majorities in votes on the topic. And the transition was a slow one too.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by acdha on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:35PM (#29761183)
> Americans don’t like each-other.

Specifically white Americans want to avoid living with brown Americans. Once segregation was no longer law, it launched a wave of destruction for public infrastructure: pools, schools, transit, even things like sidewalks all became things to oppose if they had to be shared.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by throwawayboise on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:48PM (#29761308)
It's more than that. Jews, Asians (individually, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc), Italians, Polish, Irish, Arabic ... all segregated into their own neighborhoods. The "melting pot" was never really real. We are a nation of immigrants that never really got along with one another except when common interests were threatened.

I don't know that it's uniquely American thing either, I think this happens anywhere that different cultures come together. Humans are deeply tribal.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by acdha on Saturday January 01, 2022 @04:07PM (#29762801)
I think the intensity matters: my Irish ancestors weren’t considered white when they got here but there wasn’t a mass exodus from cities rather than sharing infrastructure, and they were allowed into whiteness over time (especially when large numbers of cops were needed to police black populations). The ones who served in the military weren’t restricted to certain units and duties, etc. When white people moved to the suburbs, the neighborhoods which were razed to make highways had a very uneven distribution.

That’s definitely not perfect (and it’s like, say, Chinatowns weren’t raided or sacked) but that option of coexistence wasn’t on offer in much of the country.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by kilotaras on Saturday January 01, 2022 @02:29PM (#29761761)
> all segregated into their own neighborhoods.

Check out Shellings model of segregation [0]. Global seggregation doesn't necessarily mean that local decisions have strong preference for their race.

e.g. for two types it's enough to have preference "I want at least 33% of my neighbours to be same type as me" to reach segregated global result.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schelling%27s_model_of_segrega...

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by kiba on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:47PM (#29761292)
This is inaccurate.

The GM conspiracy bought streetcar companies to replace them with buses, not to eliminate public transportation.

The reality is that streetcar companies were already unprofitable, killed by infrastructure cars and poor urban planning. So it was already easy for GM to buy these companies.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by bch on Saturday January 01, 2022 @03:10PM (#29762171)
> The reality is that streetcar companies were already unprofitable

What seems to me to be a good takedown of “public transit must be profitable or be dismantled”, or “the US post office must be profitable or be dismantled” is: How profitable is the US military?

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by kiba on Saturday January 01, 2022 @03:32PM (#29762396)
Everybody has a budget. Going red is just very bad. Sustainability is the keyword here.

A streetcar enhance economic activity and transportation, especially when built with proper urban planning, and may even make a profit.

With the profit, the public transit agency can use the fund to improve infrastructure with hopefully less political influence in order to further it missions.

You could of course make a trade off and not mandate the agency to be profitable and subsidize it, but it's a political tradeoff.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by amrocha on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:40PM (#29765573)
Just because a business turns a loss doesn't mean it isn't sustainable.

Public transport is unprofitable pretty much everywhere, because the explicit transactions don't offset costs of operation. However, the cost of not operating public transit is that you end up with awful car centric cities, more respiratory disease from increased traffic, lost efficiency from congestion, higher real estate prices in walkable areas, etc.

Additionally, there's a ton of positive externalities that are not factored in when judging profitability. Effective public transport increases foot traffic, which increases economic activity.

Even if public transit was 100% free, it would still be worth running. The market is awful at evaluating long-term large scale effects, and just disregards them as "externalities". You can't blindly trust markets to build your cities.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by ben-schaaf on Saturday January 01, 2022 @08:41PM (#29764874)
An even better one that's directly relevant is: How profitable are roads? Public roads are exclusively unprofitable and yet they get fully subsidised.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by Kavelach on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:01PM (#29760266)
I don't think that is true. If you look at how larger residential areas looked in the States historically, you'll these placese were very livable, since there weee no cars. The main issue in the US is that at some point the jobs of city and regional planners were hijacked by car industry lobbyists. The current state of affairs is what followed.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:50PM (#29760767)
Far before cars, people left those cities for more space and fewer neighbors. It’s the foundation of our narrative.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by Kavelach on Saturday January 01, 2022 @04:25PM (#29762994)
Are you sure this is what really happened? The US built cities like any other country on this planet, but the influx of immigrants and people's pursuit of wealth pushed them to settle new lands and establish new population centres.

What's more, until not so long ago, US cities looked differently. Then a lot of what was already built got destroyed to build motorways and huge parking lots. If you look at aerial photos of US cities from around '30s[0], you will see much denser, more walkable cities. Then take a look at what General Motors proposed with its Futurama at the World's Fair; it is the essence of what cities in the US are currently, albeit cranked up to 11.

Some of Europe's cities took the road that GM pushed, and one very prominent example has been Amsterdam[1], which is currently known as one of the least car-oriented cities in the world. The changes have been reverted in the EU, but not in the US, and that is the current state of affairs.

On the last note: US historically has been a place, when local communities had to be strong, strictly because of its roots in colonizing the continent. Without local communities that then shaped into larger organizations, the history would be very different, and States would be under Britain's rule for much longer, maybe even to this day.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/bkkfww/1930_aerial_... [1] https://inkspire.org/post/amsterdam-was-a-car-loving-city-in...

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Sunday January 02, 2022 @11:22AM (#29770024)
Am I sure that westward expansion in the 1800s really happened? A lot of people seems to quote a lot of stuff in HN while missing the pretty obvious big picture.

And you are making my point. If we wanted to shift back to carless society we could, others have.

We don’t. Because…

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by Kavelach on Sunday January 02, 2022 @05:08PM (#29774523)
I'm not asking whether the expansion happened, but whether you think whether it happened because people in the US dislike each other, which is a completely different questions altogether
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by jen20 on Saturday January 01, 2022 @11:48AM (#29760129)
The north east (unsurprisingly) has many nice small towns, with moderately OK rail connections to big cities, and decent communities. Northern NJ (for example) is full of them. They’re obviously less common as you go west.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by cscurmudgeon on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:40PM (#29760652)
Is there a shred of data to support Americans hate each other more than other countries? I will even take a buzzfeed poll slapped together in a minute.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:43PM (#29760688)
Your handle.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by cscurmudgeon on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:08AM (#29766545)
Good try. I am not American. I am an Indian citizen who loves the opportunities available in the US than in India.

One of those opportunities was a good PhD education that taught me how to spot bullshit.

So to confirm what is happening here for a neutral observer, are just cooking up things when you say Americans hate each other more.

I would say Europeans hate each other more. They had two world wars centered around Europe in the last century and way too many real secession movements: Brexit, Catalonia etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_move...

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by treis on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:21PM (#29761043)
>Small towns I drive through now are full of angry people who seem to want to be left alone. It’s incredibly sad.

I would love to know how you determined that.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:28PM (#29761107)
I do a lot of road-trips through rural Oregon, California and sometimes Texas. I get middle fingers, angry truck drivers actively trying to run me off the road. Someone even hit me once, for no reason. I get threatened semi often in towns where I look like I don’t belong, but trust me they do it to each-other too.

Rural life has always been hard and rough but it’s sad. Their towns are dying and they look, act and feel miserable to each-other.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by chucksmash on Saturday January 01, 2022 @02:40PM (#29761864)
> It’s pretty easy to understand when you realize Americans don’t like eachother.

The way American communities were laid out by previous generations was not caused by the recent political strife.

I'd say it has much more to do with available modes of transit when the place was settled than it does any national characteristic of incivility.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by pakitan on Saturday January 01, 2022 @11:49AM (#29760136)
> It’s pretty easy to understand when you realize Americans don’t like eachother.

As a general rule, people don't like each other. In places where people live close to one another it's not because they like it but out of some kind of combination between inertia and necessity.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:02PM (#29760281)
When I go to France or England or India (city centers and countryside) people may not Love each-other but they seem to generally be ok with being together and cooperating a bit more. In America it’s a whole new level. Except for a few idyllic small towns and suburbs that are actually economically and racially exclusionary that seem to have a faux-community.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:43PM (#29760686)
I think the point is that for a series of reasons, during the 20th century the US built a lot of infrastructure that allows a lot (not all!) people to get further away from each other than is typical in Europe (probably elsewhere too, but I have no experience other than the US & Europe).

Neighbors on a street in London don't love but do tolerate each other, and deal with the implications of close proximity and shared responsibilites moderately well. In the US it's much easier to move somewhere and get a parcel of land that makes you feel like a sovereign property owner. Your neighbors are not as adjacent, and may even be ignorable.

Obviously this doesn't cover the millions of Americans who live in relatively dense (generally older) cities, but it does impact the millions who live in suburban, ex-urban and rural parts of the country.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:48PM (#29760733)
I agree. If we liked each-other a bit more tho that force wouldn’t be there.

I’ll quote the American classic “elbow room” as soft proof. https://youtu.be/aHVx4nqgMPQ

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by snakeboy on Saturday January 01, 2022 @02:16PM (#29761627)
Wow, I had never seen that before. What a bizarre video with a forced tie-in of the whole manifest destiny idea with lunar missions (1976).

It seems to completely ignore the reality of communities and society (and history, for that matter) for an unquestioning expansion of our domain, all wrapped up in this patronizing metaphor about needing "elbow room".

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @04:14PM (#29762882)
Yes. It is our narrative. This is one of the most honest videos I’ve ever found of our true views on life in America vs the ivory tower discussions that constantly blame GM and Robert Moses for destroying their “communities”
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday January 01, 2022 @06:47PM (#29764119)
If that is "The American Narrative" how did Chicago or New York City ever happen? How is it that a majority of Americans live in metropolitan areas rather than further out where they can more "elbow room" ?

The European conquest of north America and subsequent repopulation with immigrants (alongside a vastly diminished indigenous population) created an ethos and an opportunity for people who wanted to live away from everybody else to do so ... by pretending that the continent had been empty, and because of the need for natural resources, this was relatively easy to do.

But alongside that process, Americans were building some of the largest cities in the world, developing and improving "urban technologies", and generally pushing the boundaries of what cities could be (a role now largely taken over by SE Asia).

Any explanation for the structure, placement, demographics and dynamics of American society that focuses on single reason for things (whether it is "elbow room", "Robert Moses" or "racism") is going to be wrong about most things.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @11:44PM (#29765901)
So cars did this entirely on their own. Come on

You might not like cars but everyone else does. They like and want cities this way and in reality it’s people like us that are the outliers. We aren’t right. We are going against the tide.

We built cities around cars Because we like cars — because they put distance between us and our fellow American we don’t particularly like or want to tolerate.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by PaulDavisThe1st on Sunday January 02, 2022 @12:46PM (#29771225)
I write:

> Any explanation for the structure, placement, demographics and dynamics of American society that focuses on single reason for things (whether it is "elbow room", "Robert Moses" or "racism") is going to be wrong about most things.

to which you respond:

> So cars did this entirely on their own. Come on

Is there something that unclear about what I wrote?

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Monday January 03, 2022 @12:49PM (#29783722)
Because you comments are constantly just boiled down to “it’s too complicated to understand”.

Look people left cities in the 50s because they didn’t like other people in cities. It’s a well known and established fact. It’s called white flight. And it continues to this day.

Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by throwawayboise on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:56PM (#29761396)
Those quaint European neighborhoods, towns and villages are all also racially and culturally homogenous. And where that is changing, there is animosity and discord.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by d0gsg0w00f on Saturday January 01, 2022 @03:35PM (#29762443)
I can understand why you're being downvoted but I think you have a point. Someone who drinks beer and listens to country music is not going to be doing neighborhhod dinners with orthodox jews. We can claim to be all multicultural and all accepting but we always seek out like minded people. Culturally homogeneous communities let people put their guard down and give people common ground to connect on. You could argue that we want to create a new type of homogeneous culture--one where nobody eats pork, nobody wears MAGA hats, people keep their religious beliefs to themselves, etc. but that's still a homogeneous culture.
Re:Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in by tsunamifury on Saturday January 01, 2022 @04:14PM (#29762887)
I agree even if people are downvoting you.