News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by throwaway81523 on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @07:38AM (#29648438)
Ok, enough AWS outages to say I'm tired of hearing about low end stuff being flaky.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by BiteCode_dev on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @09:13AM (#29649520)
"Don't use a self hosted monolithe, it's not reliable! You need a cloud FS with a load balancer under observability and your data in a db that scales horizontally, all orchestrated by kubs."

Meanwhile, I currently have a gig to work on a video service which features a never updated centos 6, an unsupported python 2 blob website, and a push to prod deployment procedure, running a single postgres db serving streaming for 4 millions users a month.

And it's got years of up time, cost 1/100th of AWS, and can be maintained by one dev.

Not saying "cloud is bad", but we got to stop screaming old techs are no good either.

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by osrec on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @09:39AM (#29649909)
Purely out of interest, I'd like to know more about your streaming architecture. I assume postgres just holds the meta data, and the actual video content is stored elsewhere? What strategies have you employed to scale the streaming part of your service? I imagine 4 million users a month is quite a significant amount of traffic!
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by BiteCode_dev on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @10:22AM (#29650469)
1 - For the last 10 years, servers have been beasts. You have a lot of cores, plenty of HD and RAM. Servers are less expensives than devs. Scaling vertically can go VERY far.

2 - Caching is life. We have 3 layers of caching: cloudflare, varnish, and redis. Most things don't need to be real time. A lot of things can be a month old and the user doesn't care. User need immediate feedback to be happy, but not necessary fresh data.

3 - if you compile nginx manually, you get to use a lot of plugins that can do stuff super fast, including serving videos. You can script stuff in lua that will just skip the backend completly.

4 - mind your encoding. We carefully chose how we encode videos. The ffmpeg parameters are pretty insane, but the space / quality ratio is amazing, espacially on mobile. It takes a lot of time to experiment with those, nobody share them :)

5 - we offload everything we can to cron tasks or task queues. Including, obviously, encoding, screenshooting, etc.

6 - don't hold data you can't lose. E.G: billing. This way you can have a relaxed attitute toward data. If we ever loose a day of business, users will be in a bad mood for a week, but that won't be the end of the world. We don't need a bullet proof system if bullets can't kill us.

7 - give money to ffmpeg and opencv, because damn those things are fast. And good.

8 - servers are hosted accross 2 providers. This way, if one goes down, or decide to stop doing business with us Google style, we have a second one. Happened recently with leaseweb: they shutdown a whole room without offering an alternative.

E.G: votes.

They don't hit the backend on write. We pile them from nginx to redis, then once a day, we aggregate and store on postgres, which the backends will consumme. We just store each vote on localstorage as well so that the user feels like it's real time when they vote, but in reality it's updated once a day. But votes don't affect the money side of our business, so if we lose them one day, it does not mean death.

P.S: yes, posgres/redis/elasticsearch only hold metadata. Videos are stored on disk. There is no docker images, no mircoservices, FS is ext4. Which means with a lot of RAM, the OS FS cache will have most popular videos already loaded and ready to be streamed. Everything is raid 0, so if we get one disk corrupted, you lose the server. But we upload each videos on severeal servers, so when a disk get corrupted, we just replace the whole server. In fact, anything goes wrong on a server, we replace it. It's not worth it to find the root cause, unless 2 servers die in the same way successively.

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by ffritz on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @11:44AM (#29651697)
This was super interesting to read, thank you very much.

Regarding the ffmpeg parameters and formats in general: Do you use newer formats too, like AV1 and the like?

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by throwaway81523 on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @06:17PM (#29656716)
The main One Weird Trick that I remember from messing with ffmpeg is that for in-browser viewing, I had to generate a lot more mp4 reference frames than the default. This was because of deficiency in the HTML5 view extensions in browers a few years ago. I don't know if that is still an issue. The extra frames increased bandwidth consumption, but surprisingly, only slightly rather than big bloat.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by BiteCode_dev on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @12:34PM (#29652471)
No, we use only H264, because nobody has the courage to redo all the work we've done to optimize the encoding with a newer format :)
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by truetraveller on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @10:46AM (#29650808)
Thank you!
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by henriquez on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @07:51AM (#29648587)
Heroku isn’t “low end,” it’s a PaaS built on top of AWS. So you’re really just hearing about another AWS outage lol
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by christophilus on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:30AM (#29649029)
They're not saying Heroku is low end. They're saying, "I'm tired of hearing that it's irresponsible to run your own servers."

At least, that's what I understood.

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by ryanbrunner on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:45AM (#29649184)
Any place I've worked at that managed their own servers (to be fair, the last time I worked at a place like that was 2010) definitely had more protracted downtimes than AWS - it just felt not as bad because we were in control of the situation, but at the end of the day that didn't get us up any faster.

Another side benefit of being with AWS is when you do have an outage, a lot of other people have outages, and so you sort of blend in with the noise. It's not great to be down, but if you're down and also "big service X" who's also an AWS customer is down, it makes your downtime look less like a lack of competence and more like an unavoidable force of nature.

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by dijit on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:55AM (#29649290)
I guess it's extremely dependent on an org to org basis.

I worked at a company that's bread and butter was online services (e-commerce SaaS platform, similar to Netsuite) and we had significantly fewer outages than AWS had.

But we had redundancies built in to most things, I'm not saying it was perfect but it worked.

The major difference might be that almost nobody is willing to spend 20% of what they spend on AWS/GCP to have a self-hosted solution.

The reason "cloud is so expensive" is because they're essentially telling you what the price will be and even if they only spend 40% of that on actual hardware and operations: it's more than most companies would invest in themselves.

This is absurd, of course, but it's absolutely true.

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by mijoharas on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @09:15AM (#29649558)
This comment doesn't say anything about heroku?
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by jacob019 on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:57AM (#29649327)
Right. I've had an excellent experince with Vultr for the last couple years, for about 1/10th the cost of AWS. I use other small VPS providers as well. I run my own small business and I need to keep costs down to stay competitive. I used to use AWS more but the bill always creeps up to inappropriate levels. AWS billing is insulting, oh you forgot to renew your reserved instance? That's going to be double this month. I still use cloudfront, route 53, and a few of the smallest instances for mail servers and asterisk though. It's foolish to go all in with AWS, or with anything really.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by api on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:14AM (#29648858)
Nobody ever got fired for using AWS.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by alecbz on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:30AM (#29649027)
I wonder to what extent this actually becomes less of a problem the more people use AWS. At this point AWS being down just feels like "the internet is down", it's hard for customers to be too mad at any company being down when all their competitors are too.

Though I guess there's still probably just lost revenue that could be captured by having better uptime, even if your competitors are down.

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by AQuantized on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:34AM (#29649065)
This seems like an interesting pendulum swing where the few companies not reliant on AWS could capture significant enough revenue by maintaining uptime during a potential busy season outage.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by FridayoLeary on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @09:27AM (#29649734)
Maybe they'll just find themselves DDOSed by the sudden influx of visitors? As a small example, i think HN was slightly slower when FB had their outage.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by ryanbrunner on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:46AM (#29649202)
That depends on them being up the rest of the time. If they have an equal number of outages as AWS, it has the risk to make them look worse (since all attention is on them when they're out).
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by hwers on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:46AM (#29649203)
These two outages have been incredibly anomalous, I doubt you'd get much revenue betting that they'll be a common occurrence.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by tapan_jk on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:56AM (#29649305)
Agree. Now viable alternatives exist. The nextgen cloud providers will learn from the weaknesses of incumbents and innovate.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by trabant00 on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:22AM (#29648964)
True sad fact. I first thought it is a management problem but lately I see it is the tech bros who push for fads in the hopes of staying relevant and not asuming responsability for choices.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by Jupe on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @09:20AM (#29649648)
(Accidentally down-voted, apologies! I would upvote to fix, but can't... Update: fixed)

Agreed. Arguably, not using an existing cloud service is a red flag on any new hires. AWS being the primary, but experience using GCS or Azure are at least viable skills, even if your business is AWS-based.

But the "fad-based-development" meme is not going away any time soon. The incentives in the business are built around it (really! No one want's to work on a boring old relational database solution any more). In the old days it was 4th generation languages, RUP, XML and Function Point Analysis... today it's functional programming, SDKs, big-three cloud PaaS experience or (shudder) block-chain.

I think back to my much younger self, when I thought that technology was something to be mastered to solve real-world problems, and I laugh. Little did I know the real problem to be solved was to figure out how to solve those same-old business problems but with the technology of the season (Kubernetes, GraphQL or ML).

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by datavirtue on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @09:12AM (#29649509)
Omg, this needs to be on a plaque or something.

"Let's move our internal app with 50 users to k8s in the cloud." --true story

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by Jupe on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @09:36AM (#29649873)
Amazing. And as long as "technological progress" sufficiently obscures the impact of such ridiculousness the more such projects will continue to occur.

It's a real shame that the collective world of technology does not properly respect the simple solutions that work.

It is almost funny the dichotomy here. Most technological people "admire" the simplicity, elegance and extensibility of the command line. But tell those same people that the best data store for the solution is a relational database and their nose crinkles up.

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by datavirtue on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @12:30PM (#29652411)
Yeah, after getting caught up in the hype for ten years I'm running back to proven tech that is flushed out (Java, Swing-omg it just works, wanting to try Ruby,even PHP is looking good at this point).

Every dependency scrutinized and discarded if possible.

I would probably work for free if someone setup their own on-prem cloud in Tanzu, Open shift, or Ranger and used old school proven frameworks for development.

Working in AWS has been a real shitty experience at these large companies. All the nit picky problems (of which there are thousands) get dumped on devs who are trying to deliver working software.

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by debarshri on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:17AM (#29648896)
Today DO also went down. We could not login briefly.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by jeremyjh on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:40AM (#29649122)
Just the control panel or were your instances down as well?
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by debarshri on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @05:22PM (#29656242)
Just the control panel, we couldn't login
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by pxue on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:42AM (#29649154)
maybe except a team at google? ;)
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by falcolas on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:55AM (#29649295)
I have a story from only a few years ago where the finance section, and a good portion of management, of Google had no idea how poor their GAE solution was for uptime, until they tried to do business critical work using software that was hosted on GAE.

Uptime improved rather dramatically after that.

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by pxue on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @09:09AM (#29649464)
yeap. it's sloowwly getting there.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by flatiron on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:18AM (#29648911)
If you rely solely on east 1 maybe?
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by omh2 on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:37AM (#29649091)
AWS doesn't follow their own advice about hosting multi-regional.

When us-east-1 is sufficiently borked the management API and IAM services in all regions tend to go down with it.

Static infrastructures usually avoid the fallout, but anyone dependent on the API or otherwise dynamically created resources often get caught in the blast regardless of region

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by jeremyjh on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:41AM (#29649131)
I didn't hear any reports of that happening in the most recent outage. The console was inoperable but you could work around using regional console host names.
Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by omh2 on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @09:03AM (#29649383)
If you're referring to Dec 7, it absolutely did. Metrics went down nearly across the board, which also means most auto-scaling setups were non-functional. Cloudfront metrics didn't properly recover until the next day

Logging in with root credentials was not possible in any region, and even logging in with IAM creds in other regions yielded an intermittently buggy console

and as is usual with us-east-1 outages management API calls were a complete crap shoot regardless of region

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by tyingq on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @09:00AM (#29649364)
There are some services that do have hard US-EAST-1 dependencies. Cloudfront, because of certificates. Route53. The control API for IAM (adding/removing roles, etc). And there's also the notion of "global endpoints" like https://sts.amazonaws.com... it's not clear why that exists, because it fails when us-east-1 does. It would be better to only have regional endpoints if the "global" ones are region-specific in reality. The endpoint thing is documented, but it's still confusing to people.

The dependency chains can bite you too. During the us-east-1 outage, a Lambda run by cron-like schedules via EventBridge was itself in an okay state, but the EventBridge events that kick it off were stuck in a queue that was released when the problem was fixed. So if your Lambda wasn't idempotent, and you ran it in another region during the outage, you ended up with problems.

Re:Tell HN: AWS appears to be down again by throwanem on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:58AM (#29649329)
It wasn't reliable. I heard of many more who weren't able to get in that way than who were, and was in the former category myself.

We didn't take any downtime, but if anything had gone wrong there would have been nothing we could do about it until IAM came back up.