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Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by politician on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @10:33AM (#29638319)
It’s not like putting TSMC fabs in Japan is making things any safer. A China that makes a military move on Taiwan is going to feel emboldened to right more perceived historical wrongs.

The US needs fabs on-shore.

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by MangoCoffee on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @10:44AM (#29638449)
>The US needs fabs on-shore.

Intel, GlobalFoundries, TSMC and Samsung all have fabs in the US.

TSMC have a fab at WA and building one in AZ.

Samsung have a fab at TX

US have plenty

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by Something1234 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @11:01AM (#29638627)
Yeah except most of them are in water scarce region. Texas and Arizona are going to be in trouble in the next 10 to 15 years WRT water supply, the mighty Colorado isn't delivering enough. The fossil aquifers are being depleted.
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by MangoCoffee on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:46PM (#29639948)
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/why-do-chip-makers-k...

"Counterintuitively, the famously thirsty industry can even improve the local water supply due to a focus on reclamation and purification—Intel has funded 15 water restoration projects in the Grand Canyon State with a goal of restoring 937 million gallons per year, and it expects to reach net positive water use once the projects are completed."

"What Arizona lacks in water, it makes up for with overall stability—the state is very seismically stable and does not suffer from hurricanes, with low risks of other natural disasters such as tornadoes to boot. Building chip fabs without such guarantees is possible—for example, Intel has a large presence in Oregon—but chip fabricators on the West Coast must take extreme isolation measures, which Arizona plants don't require."

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by qchris on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @11:24AM (#29638888)
This is something I've wondered about myself. Like, if I was going to be building a foundry in North America that is supposed to operate 24/7 producing silicon for potentially many decades and required billions of dollars of ongoing investment, I'd probably try to pick somewhere in the upper Midwest like Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, or even Missouri. You might potentially get a little lake weather depending on where you pick, but the big risks like drought, earthquakes, wildfires, hurricanes, floods, and tornadoes would be much less likely, there's not exactly a shortage of space, and there's a number of mid-sized cities and some elite universities in the region that could both help attract and keep talent happy. Are the tax credits in AZ really that much more attractive?
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by bee_rider on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:55PM (#29640065)
I suspect it is a tradeoff between "cheap real estate" and "nearby California."

But if I were in charge, I'd try to put some fabs as close to the Northeast megalopolis as possible while still being cheap. So probably like... Pennsylvania? Upstate NY? Hell, why not Maine? Better weather in the NE (which isn't much of a statement, Arizona is barely human habitable) and it might be interesting to experiment with some alternative tech culture to Silicon Valley's (more down to Earth, IMO).

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by renewiltord on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:18PM (#29639538)
This is not a significant risk factor. It’s the naïve model: “they use water, therefore they will be in trouble if water becomes scarce”. However through recycling to reuse, the net use is low enough to not be a significant risk factor.

Think about it. They’re building a massive plant. This is a basic input factor. What model of the world reconciles the idea that these guys are very good at making semiconductors for decades but unable to model changes in the input factors over that period? Does that model sound like the highest probability model to explain their behavior?

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by MangoCoffee on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:49PM (#29639978)
the water talking point is never going to die. Taiwan doesn't have enough water for all its industry and semis industry taking up the most water yet Taiwan managed and TSMC keep building new fab in Taiwan.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/why-do-chip-makers-k...

"Counterintuitively, the famously thirsty industry can even improve the local water supply due to a focus on reclamation and purification—Intel has funded 15 water restoration projects in the Grand Canyon State with a goal of restoring 937 million gallons per year, and it expects to reach net positive water use once the projects are completed."

reclaim the water is the key

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by ahartmetz on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @01:03PM (#29640163)
> However through recycling to reuse

Exactly! Fabs use lots of hazardous chemicals, it's not like they can just dump the water contaminated with these into the next river. And if they clean it, why not clean it a little more and reuse it?

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by JaimeThompson on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @11:46AM (#29639144)
This is an interesting article about that http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2020/ph240/multani2/
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by jhgb on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @03:03PM (#29641449)
I think the interesting question is for what alternative purpose you could use that water for in Texas or Arizona. While processing a wafer might require quite a bit of water, it is also the case that the economic value of that finished wafer is very substantial. How comparable are other industries in the region when it comes to dollars generated per cubic meter of water consumed?
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by UncleOxidant on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @11:48AM (#29639174)
The US needs more fabs in more diverse geographical locations. AZ seems like a poor choice given the water situation. TX may have similar issues. Maybe some fabs in Canada would also be a good idea?
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by avs733 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:03PM (#29639380)
As I understand it, the Fabs in AZ are a net positive for the water situation there. They are incredibly responsible users (especially compared to agriculture)

The major reason for them being in AZ is constant(ish) weather, cheap land, workforce, and cheap power.

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by jimbob45 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @10:42AM (#29638428)
The US has Intel and China is highly unlikely to make a move on Taiwan at the peak of Taiwan's technological power. They're far more likely to wait 10-20 years to when TSMC is no longer the same powerhouse and then slowly come in as the benevolent helping hand.
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by hunterb123 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @11:38AM (#29639053)
I doubt the CCP taking the Republic of China will be slow, economical, and political like we've seen them do for their other puppet countries.

It will be abrupt and bloody. The ROC knows these strategies, the only way it will fall is by force and hopefully the US and other sovereign countries stand up and help against that when the day comes.

It seems that the CCPs plan is to whittle away support from all of the ROC's allies first, then crush them.

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by willmw101 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:31PM (#29639742)
>hopefully the US and other sovereign countries stand up and help against that when the day comes.

Genuine question, what do you think that help would look like? Because every time I try and game out scenarios for China re-absorbing Taiwan by force I come to the conclusion it would essentially be an unwinnable 'war' by western nations and likely a further erosion of the United State's position as the global military superpower (on the back of the Afghan pullout). China can afford to play the long, slow game when it comes to their proximity and civilian toll in/around Taiwan, much of the West can not.

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by hunterb123 on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:10AM (#29648819)
First off, China wouldn't be re-absorbing Taiwan, the ROC is the original and the PRC is the communist spin-off.

Second, I would assume heavy heavy sanctions, no western nation to deal with China at all. Military force if foreign troops stationed in Taiwan were injured or killed.

The West can play the slow game with Taiwan because it's solely the CCP's problem and the current status quo is what the West wants.

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by another_story on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @02:35AM (#29646477)
When has the CCP done anything abrupt and bloody against another country?
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by hunterb123 on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @06:44AM (#29648044)
Generally that's reserved for its own people, that was my point.

The Land Reform, The Great Leap Forward, Tiananmen Square Massacre, Hong Kong.

The persecution and genocide of Uyghurs / Tibetans / Falun Gong.

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by trasz on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @02:23PM (#29641022)
"Abrupt and bloody" is the US way of doing things. China has no reason for doing it like that.
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by hunterb123 on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @08:52AM (#29649264)
The Great Leap Forward, Tiananmen Square Massacre, Tibet tortures, Uyghur genocide.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/ccp-at-100-years-a-century-of-...

But please, continue to shill for the murderous authoritarian regime with your whataboutism.

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by trasz on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @02:08PM (#29653645)
I'm talking about current affairs, not stories from five decades ago, unless you want to talk about Indians, Vietnam, Philadelphia bombing, or Kent State. The alleged Uighur "cultural genocide" is nothing compared to actual genocide in Middle East, with one million random civilians dead because of American invasion. The fact that you're even mentioning Tibet, which, before Chinese invasion, was literally a feudal state with the ruling caste treating everyone else as slaves doesn't really help your point either.

But please, continue to shill for the murderous American regime with your whataboutism.

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by makeitdouble on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @11:04AM (#29638674)
> Why is TSMC building a plant in Japan?

> Primarily to serve Sony and other Japanese clients.

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by bell-cot on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @11:06AM (#29638692)
One could very similarly argue that the US needs to have a great many things - most of them far, far simpler than a fab - on-shore. Unfortunately, the US seems uncaring. If not oblivious.
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by megablast on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @02:08PM (#29640838)
So many things you decline to name one.
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by trasz on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @10:35AM (#29638339)
The US is on the opposite side of the Earth.
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by chaosite on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @10:45AM (#29638457)
The US has military bases in Japan.

In various other locations in the world, too, but also in Japan.

edit: I think I may be missing your point.

Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by trasz on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @01:36PM (#29640484)
My point is, US security is irrelevant here. It's about Taiwan and Japan.
Re:TSMC in Japan: Things to know about its chip factory plans by traceroute66 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @11:29AM (#29638947)
> The US is on the opposite side of the Earth.

Guess its my job to remind someone that the Earth is round. ;-)

Go to Japan on your favourite map website, zoom out, and take a look to the right.