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Re:Zig 0.9.0 by tdeck on Monday December 20, 2021 @06:48PM (#29632025)
> the actual correct thing to do is intentionally avoid string handling,

That sounds nice and all, but wr have 50+ years of protocols and formats and APIs built up around strings. Unless you're just writing code to run on a small microcontroller, you need to be able to parse and generate strings. So its going to be pretty frustrating not to have good support for them, or to have every codebase use its own libraries and idioms for working with strings.

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by rep_lodsb on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:19PM (#29633814)
"Stringly typed" programming gave us SQL injections, shellshock, and the log4j debacle. Not to mention probably 99% of processor cycles being wasted on parsing and re-encoding again and again from/to text-based formats that are in no way actually human-readable without the use of specialized tools.

When have you last browsed the web using telnet? It's all plain text, so you should be able to, right? Press Ctrl-U right now and get a taste of how readable it is, and even that is with the benefit of syntax highlighting.

On the machine level, processing binary data is effortless. At most, you have to swap the bytes around to conform to wrong-endian network byte order. Check that the length of the data fits into your buffer. Not a problem with Zig, or any language that doesn't silently ignore integer overflow as C does!

Scripting languages make handling strings seem easy, because that's what they were built for. And of course in most languages there are "mature" libraries for parsing JSON or XML. But all the fundamental complexity is still there. Each layer of abstraction may introduce some bug that can be exploited. Compared to classical buffer overflows, it may take several more steps to gain arbitrary code execution, but every bit of extra code you depend on still increases the attack surface.

Ideally, only user interface code should be dealing with strings at all, but legacy protocols may unfortunately require it too. This should be isolated as much as possible from the rest of any application, and not dictate what features are "first class" in a programming language.

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by tdeck on Thursday December 23, 2021 @01:22AM (#29659208)
That's right, my suggestion was clearly that we should replace all datatyoes with strings. This comment brought to you by TCL/Tk.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by AndyKelley on Monday December 20, 2021 @06:57PM (#29632094)
Protocols and formats absolutely should not require decoding strings. I think you are mistaken. Can you name any well-established protocol or format that does not treat strings as opaque encoded bytes?

Edit: so far these examples have been given:

* HTTP: wrong. the spec does not tell you to decode any strings

* CSV: wrong. the spec does not tell you to decode any strings, nor is it necessary to have any unicode awareness in order to properly read and parse the data or deal with the delimiters.

Additional request: if you attempt to provide a counter-example, please also point to the place in the spec where it tells you to decode a string.

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by _rend on Monday December 20, 2021 @07:22PM (#29632262)
JSON[1], for instance, specifies:

1. "JSON syntax describes a sequence of Unicode code points. JSON also depends on Unicode in the hex numbers used in the \u escapement notation."

2. "A JSON text is a sequence of tokens formed from Unicode code points that conforms to the JSON value grammar."

3. "A string is a sequence of Unicode code points wrapped with quotation marks (U+0022). All code points may be placed within the quotation marks except for the code points that must be escaped: quotation mark (U+0022), reverse solidus (U+005C), and the control characters U+0000 to U+001F. There are two-character escape sequence representations of some characters."

4. "Any code point may be represented as a hexadecimal escape sequence. The meaning of such a hexadecimal number is determined by ISO/IEC 10646. If the code point is in the Basic Multilingual Plane (U+0000 through U+FFFF), then it may be represented as a six-character sequence: a reverse solidus, followed by the lowercase letter u, followed by four hexadecimal digits that encode the code point."

5. "Note that the JSON grammar permits code points for which Unicode does not currently provide character assignments."

JSON does require Unicode awareness, both for general parsing, and for correctly interpreting strings. Backslashes are allowed for special escape characters, which means that you must be aware of the format (and the encoding of the text) in order to be able to decode.

Note that JSON also doesn't specify a required encoding, only Unicode correctness, so a parser may need to be able to handle multiple Unicode encodings and differentiate between them.

The spec doesn't specify what to do with code points which are not understood as Unicode (given especially the allowance for unassigned characters), but explicitly-invalid Unicode should be rejected.

[1] https://www.ecma-international.org/wp-content/uploads/ECMA-4...

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by Spex_guy on Monday December 20, 2021 @08:09PM (#29632603)
Parsing this out of utf-8 encoding requires no knowledge of unicode or even utf-8. All of the relevant characters (reverse solidus, quotation mark, and control characters) are single byte characters in the ascii subset. These characters cannot be found inside multi-byte characters in utf-8 due to the design of the encoding. Converting the unicode character escape codes to utf-8 would require knowledge of utf-8 encoding, but this unescaping is not a feature that would be provided by the language regardless.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by _rend on Monday December 20, 2021 @08:20PM (#29632691)
> Parsing this out of utf-8 encoding requires no knowledge of unicode or even utf-8.

If you have valid UTF-8 already, then yes, the task is a lot easier. But depending on the level at which you're parsing, this might not be the case — i.e., if you're writing a JSON parser from the ground up, you do need to know what UTF-8 and Unicode are, and will need to validate the input data.

> Converting the unicode character escape codes to utf-8 would require knowledge of utf-8 encoding

Agreed. Even if you're not working at the "array-of-bytes" level, you will need to be able to parse and translate "\u..."-style strings into the appropriate output character encoding.

> but this unescaping is not a feature that would be provided by the language regardless.

I'm not sure we're talking about this being handled at the language level. This translation is something that would likely be offered at the parser level (working with the features offered by the standard library), but the parser does need to know about it — and does need to be able to work with strings at a granular level to be able to parse it out. By definition, it cannot leave the input data as an undecoded bag of bytes.

Note, too, that the JSON spec does not specifically require UTF-8. UTF-16 is a completely valid encoding for JSON (though much less common than UTF-8), in which case none of these characters are an ASCII subset, and greater awareness is needed to be able to handle this.

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by lhorie on Monday December 20, 2021 @10:05PM (#29633332)
> it cannot leave the input data as an undecoded bag of bytes

But all it's doing here is taking a hex string (which is entirely ASCII) and converting it into the respective hex representation. Since ASCII translates unambiguously to bytes, it doesn't really matter if `str[0]` is operating on a byte stream, codepoint stream or grapheme stream, because in utf8, they're all the same thing as long as we're within the ASCII range.

Where things get hairy is stuff like `str.reverse()` over arbitrary strings that may or may not be in ASCII. This repo[0] talks about some of the challenges associated with conflating characters with either bytes or codepoints. The problem is that programming languages often approach strings from the wrong angle: you can't just tack on handling of multi-byte codepoints on top of ascii handling; you lose O(1) random access and you don't actually model the linguistic domain properly by doing so, because in the first place, humans think of characters not in terms of bytes or codepoints, but in terms of grapheme clusters. Clustering correctness falls deep in the realm of linguistics, and is therefore arguably more suitable to be handled by a library than a programming language.

[0] https://github.com/mathiasbynens/esrever

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by _rend on Monday December 20, 2021 @10:32PM (#29633513)
I agree entirely with your second paragraph, but regarding this:

> hex string (which is entirely ASCII)

My point is that JSON doesn't need to be UTF-8 or a superset of ASCII to be valid. It can be any representation of Unicode, including UTF-16, UTF-32, GB 18030, etc.; so long as the text is is comprised of Unicode code points in some Unicode transformation format, the JSON is valid.

As I said in the parent comment: if you are working within UTF-8 exclusively, and can assume valid UTF-8, then great! But this isn't necessarily true, and in some cases, you will still need to care about the encoding.

(Either way, this starts straying slightly from the more general discussion at hand: regardless of the encoding of the string, you will still need an ergonomic way of interacting with the contents of the data in order to meaningfully parse the contents — even past the hurdle of decoding from arbitrary bytes, you still need to manipulate the data reasonably. In some cases, this means working with a buffer of bytes; in others, it makes sense to manipulate the data as a string... In which case, you may run into some of the string manipulation ergonomic considerations being discussed around these comments.)

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by lhorie on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:31PM (#29633901)
> JSON doesn't need to be UTF-8 or a superset of ASCII to be valid. It can be any representation of Unicode, including UTF-16, UTF-32, GB 18030, etc

Sure, it can also be gzipped, encrypted, etc but that goes back to the point that there's nothing inherently special about JSON as it relates to encoding to a byte stream. All there is to it is that somewhere in a program there's an encode/decode contract to extract meaning out of the byte stream, and in a protocol one most likely only looks at byte streams as sequences of bytes (because performance-wise, it doesn't make sense to look at payload size in terms of number of codepoints/graphemes at a protocol level)

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by joe_guy on Monday December 20, 2021 @08:51PM (#29632882)
Anything with case insensitivity, like domain names and email addresses, require knowledge of strings as strings.

Case sensitivity, ordering, and case changing rules, are reasons not only to have strings, but extensive culture support built into them. String types also let you compare utf16 bytes to utf8 bytes, for example.

To think that strings are opaque bytes is massively naive. It presumes one encoding exists, the input is always valid, in addition to what is said above.

An example of what you're setting yourself up for, is an exploit based around differences in handling invalid utf8.

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by chrismorgan on Monday December 20, 2021 @10:01PM (#29633312)
> * CSV: wrong. the spec does not tell you to decode any strings, nor is it necessary to have any unicode awareness in order to properly read and parse the data or deal with the delimiters.

CSV is defined in terms of characters, not bytes, so CSV parsing does require you to be encoding-aware: if your CSV file is encoded as UTF-16, bytewise parsing will destroy the data.

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by Akira1364 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @03:36AM (#29635283)
That's not really true at all. The single byte / single character comma separators are all that matters there. As long as you directly acknowledge / exactly replicate whatever blob of data happens to be in between each set of commas (even if it is nonsense garbage text) then you're correctly parsing the CSV.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by rini17 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @05:24AM (#29635904)
Well let's try :grinningface:,:grinningface: which is d83d de00 002c d83d de00 in UTF16BE. If you extract first column by naively cutting the blob bytewise before the comma you end up with d83d de00 00 with extra NUL byte, which is a problem. With UTF16LE you'd prepend NUL which is even worse.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by lhorie on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:46PM (#29639933)
> cutting the blob bytewise

That doesn't make sense. If you're working with utf16, why would you slice bytewise? That's like slicing a zip file bytewise and wondering why it got corrupted.

The whole point of the argument for string support at a library level (rather than assuming some sort of equivalence between stringness and its underlying byte buffer at the language level) is that fixed width bytes fundamentally cannot model human language characters unambiguously because what a "character" is depends on the encoding/decoding contract of the program manipulating the byte buffer.

Assuming equivalence between 0x2C and `,` stems from the ancient history of ASCII, english and usage of C `char` as a mechanism to squeeze performance out of string operations by not properly supporting the full gamut of valid human language characters.

For a low level language that might be used to implement protocols, it totally makes sense that foo.len is length in bytes, because you're pretty much never going to want to know number of grapheme clusters at a protocol level. It doesn't make sense for a language level .len to be length in terms of codepoint count because that assumes encoding, which is fundamentally a business logic level concern.

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by chrismorgan on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @10:01PM (#29645092)
The entire matter in question is whether CSV is encoding-independent, operating on bytes (we’re addressing AndyKelley’s comment). The answer clearly demonstrated here is: no, CSV is operating upon characters, not bytes, so you need to decode the Unicode first and let the CSV operate on Unicode data, so that it’s splitting on U+002C, rather than 0x2C in the byte stream before Unicode decoding which destroys the data.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by Akira1364 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:34PM (#29639775)
I think you somewhat misunderstood the manner I was suggesting you'd be approaching things there, though nothing you've said is incorrect.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by chrismorgan on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @10:04PM (#29645118)
Then I’m not sure what you were suggesting. The crux is that CSV operates upon strings, not bytes.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by tdeck on Monday December 20, 2021 @07:23PM (#29632264)
The problem is you've invented your own definition of the terms "string" and "string handling" which doesn't seem to agree with the generally accepted usage of these words. You're fixated on the word "decode" despite that not being the original focus of the discussion, not being present in my comment or the original comment you're replying to.

I could create a standard library called "arrayofbytes" that lets you, for example:

- Search an array of bytes for a smaller array of bytes

- Split up an array of bytes based on an array of delimiter bytes

- Selectively convert an array of bytes in range 41-5A to bytes in the range 61-7A

But wouldn't it be more appropriate to describe these as "string handling" functions using the generally accepted terminology of our profession?

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by somethingor on Monday December 20, 2021 @07:36PM (#29632366)
In Zig, those functions are in std.mem (distinct from std.ascii and std.unicode)
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by pcwalton on Monday December 20, 2021 @07:22PM (#29632263)
By "decode a string" do you mean that you must apply some sort of Unicode transformation to it? If so, the HFS+ file system, which .dmg files often are, is an example: Unicode NFD normalization must be performed on all filenames because of case insensitivity requirements [1].

[1]: https://eclecticlight.co/2021/05/08/explainer-unicode-normal...

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by lmm on Monday December 20, 2021 @09:05PM (#29632960)
The HTTP specification does tell you to behave differently depending on the presence or absence of specific values for case-insensitive headers. That requires decoding the header name strings.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by coldtea on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @03:27AM (#29635224)
>That requires decoding the header name strings.

Which should be ascii though no?

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by lmm on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @03:31AM (#29635248)
Maybe, but it's not "treating strings as opaque encoded bytes" which is what was asked.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by lhorie on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:58PM (#29640103)
ASCII is kinda special in that it's both a way of encoding strings and it has character-to-byte equivalence. You can specify an HTTP header as being any number of characters between `\n\r` characters or any number of bytes between `0x0A 0x0D`, and the parsing code is going to compile to pretty much the same thing regardless of whether you know what `0x0A` means or not.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by lmm on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @07:36PM (#29644016)
Right, but to do case-insensitive comparisons of header names you need to decode them as strings, not just byte sequences.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by mamcx on Monday December 20, 2021 @08:53PM (#29632898)
What???

> the spec does not tell you to decode any strings

Which "spec" is that? My user ask for csv, see csv, upload csv, do SEARCH on CSV, transform them, etc. Even do some scripting on them.

Nowhere, EVER "opaque encoded bytes" is on the spec of the users!

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by ironmagma on Monday December 20, 2021 @07:04PM (#29632136)
HTTP for one. It does something like assume ASCII-like until it encounters odd looking bytes and/or a meta encoding tag.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by wyldfire on Monday December 20, 2021 @07:56PM (#29632507)
I think HTML tags like 'meta' are merely payload to HTTP, right? Presumably a markup language doesn't fit Andrew's criteria for "protocol"?
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by 10000truths on Monday December 20, 2021 @07:19PM (#29632240)
Protobuf string fields are expected to be in UTF-8. Although I'd expect a sane implementation of a protobuf decoder to throw an exception or otherwise indicate an error if it receives a malformed protobuf encoding.
Re:Zig 0.9.0 by haberman on Monday December 20, 2021 @08:08PM (#29632598)
Protobuf decoders are expected to validate UTF-8 strings for syntax="proto3" files, but not syntax="proto2". The behavior diverges mostly for historical reasons.

This is a validation pass only and it doesn't make any meaning of the code points, except to validate that none of them are surrogate code points (disallowed in UTF-8).

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by alophawen on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @04:35AM (#29635648)
The tar / star format requires decoding strings of octal numbers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_(computing)#Header

Re:Zig 0.9.0 by adgjlsfhk1 on Monday December 20, 2021 @07:03PM (#29632127)
CSV?