News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by parkingrift on Sunday December 19, 2021 @04:39PM (#29618688)
Seems the evidence bar for bad news is quite low, but the bar for good news is unbelievably high. Is there a good source for variant circulation? As a layperson how can I find what percentage of cases in a given area are from omicron vs delta?
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by adam_arthur on Sunday December 19, 2021 @04:47PM (#29618758)
Fear and despair sells better.

But if Omicron happens to be benign enough, it almost acts as a natural vaccine. This would be a very positive development for covid, not negative.

For some reason the focus still seems to be largely on case counts instead of actual outcomes.

Economic impact of lockdowns was mitigated somewhat by mass money printing and fiscal spending. If we lockdown again, will be disastrous for global economy as most monetary and fiscal firepower has been exhausted. Very troubling to see nations moving towards this again

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by epgui on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:43PM (#29619277)
This is an editorial in the world’s top scientific journal— they don’t need to “sell” anything, and they need neither clicks nor views.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by rsfern on Sunday December 19, 2021 @08:18PM (#29620540)
+1. Their business model isn’t ads, it’s 4k$ open access fees paid by the authors
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by lucas_membrane on Sunday December 19, 2021 @10:07PM (#29621164)
> For some reason the focus still seems to be largely on case counts instead of actual outcomes.

For vaccines, the focus still seems to be largely the percentage of effectiveness, as if that effectiveness will be a reliable constant for each combination of particular vaccine, particular variant, and particular undesired outcome (case, symptomatic case, hospitalized case, oxygenized case, ventilated case, long covid, death, whatever). However, that effectiveness will almost certainly vary both with the attributes of the person (e.g. age, sex and `comorbidities`) exposed to the variant and with the environment, particularly the number of times the typical vaccinated person is exposed to the variant and how heavily exposed. For example, if we now observe, when omicron is starting to spread, that a vaccine shows 50% reduction in cases or hospitalizations or deaths, what will be the observed reduction when omicron is more prevalent, when it may be common for typical persons to be exposed multiple times per day for a few weeks? Could the 50% reduction still occur? Could the vaccine give a percentage of people super-immunity and the other people none at all? Otherwise, will the increased presence of omicron in the environment overwhelm the effects of the vaccine and drive that observed reduction from vaccination (or boosterization, or whatever) down significantly? What do the experts know from experience about this?

I wish Mr Biden nothing but success in his efforts to get us all doing the right thing, and I hope that his emphasis on vaccination now brings good results.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by matthewmacleod on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:06PM (#29618913)
For some reason the focus still seems to be largely on case counts instead of actual outcomes.

The reason seems obvious - it’s been only 25 days since the discovery of the first case. There haven’t been many outcomes yet to focus on - as far as I remember, the average time between symptom onset and hospitalisation is something like 10 days, depending on the age group.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by epgui on Sunday December 19, 2021 @07:28PM (#29620215)
Also, incidence is how you track Rt, which is one of the most important metrics for infectious diseases.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by weaksauce on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:04PM (#29618897)
> But if Omicron happens to be benign enough

Here's my speculation on the reason that the virus is seeming benignish so far... omicron requires fewer ACE2 receptors to bind to in order for it to infect a host(because of the incredible reproduction rate over delta once it takes hold). The younger are generally not taking as many precautions as the elderly did(elderly have more ACE2 receptors but have mostly been vaccinated or died already). so as the pool of eligible candidates for infection trend younger (fewer ACE2 required moves the bar of easy infection down younger) you have younger people generally having a better time with the infection because their immune system is slightly more robust. and that tracks with younger people (generally) during the delta wave and original variant; younger people tended to have fewer really bad outcomes.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by Traster on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:17PM (#29619019)
This is the exact problem - there are a hundred different explanations for why news might be good or bad. High case right? Good sometimes!

You need a fully formed view to come to a conclusion based on details and those most qualified to do so are the least willing to do so.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by tehjoker on Sunday December 19, 2021 @04:45PM (#29618743)
If good news happens, you don't need to do anything. If bad things happen, you need to do something fast. I don't think this is unreasonable.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by redisman on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:03PM (#29618889)
That’s what the news business would like you to think. How much action are you taking from the 100+ bad news stories bombarding you every day?
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by epgui on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:42PM (#29619263)
Well I’m a scientist with 12 years of post secondary education in life science (and no conflict of interest), and that’s exactly what I’d like you to think too.

Be reasonable.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by justtologin on Sunday December 19, 2021 @06:33PM (#29619743)
This is a good argument against technocracy. I want expert's views to be taken into consideration when making decisions that affect other people. I don't want them telling people what to do using the lens of their narrow technical expertise.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by epgui on Sunday December 19, 2021 @06:36PM (#29619767)
I understand what you are saying, but I’m not sure I understand how it relates to what I wrote. Do you mind clarifying that?
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by justtologin on Sunday December 19, 2021 @06:43PM (#29619835)
What I took from the thread was:

Bad news is reported more, if bad things happen, you need to act fast so it's good to pay close attention to bad news, that's what news organizations want you to think.

And then you commented that as an educated scientist, you also think we should pay close attention to bad news. At least that's how I took it.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by epgui on Sunday December 19, 2021 @06:47PM (#29619872)
Right, I see where you’re coming from.

When I wrote my comment, my intended meaning was more specific to the current situation: I really wish people would be more united in taking action in the face of an infectious disease, the transmission of which is entirely preventable in the aggregate.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by tomjen3 on Monday December 20, 2021 @03:52AM (#29622661)
Covid. Covid lockdowns. New variants.

These are all things that we have to act on, as individuals. They are all bad news.

Then you have the rest of the 99.999% that you don't need to know, but you do need to know the very few stories. And for that you have to go through all the other ones.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by culi on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:17PM (#29619023)
Sure, that's generally true. But in the case of a global pandemic, I think the comment is valid
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by redisman on Sunday December 19, 2021 @11:01PM (#29621450)
Not really. Consuming your daily drip of numbers from the news is hardly any more actionable than checking your local public health officials guidance every quarter
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by moistly on Monday December 20, 2021 @02:21AM (#29622255)
Every quarter? This new variant doubles every two days. You’d best be paying a bit more than checking the PHO every three months!
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by scns on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:22PM (#29619069)
If you want to read good news, you proactively look for them eg here https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by JackFr on Sunday December 19, 2021 @09:28PM (#29620930)
>If good news happens, you don't need to do anything. If bad things happen, you need to do something fast.

That is actually a terrible heuristic. The need to “do something fast” leads to tremendous amounts of wasted time and resources and often a codified public policy that is unproductive or counterproductive.

The bias to action over inaction exists, among other reasons, because it plays out conceit that we control our own fate.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by tehjoker on Sunday December 19, 2021 @10:37PM (#29621319)
Well, I'd rather try and be wrong than lie down and die and be right.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by hanoz on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:19PM (#29619032)
> If good news happens, you don't need to do anything.

There's plenty you need to stop doing.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by Retric on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:28PM (#29619116)
Can stop doing rather than need to stop doing. Suppose the crime rate drops dramatically, you could be less cautious or keep doing the same things.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by tehjoker on Sunday December 19, 2021 @10:38PM (#29621324)
I was talking specifically about coronavirus. Let's not get distracted from the 800k+ deaths and counting.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by Retric on Sunday December 19, 2021 @10:42PM (#29621341)
The same logic applies, you could for example continue to use a mask after COVID ends. It’s still beneficial in reducing flu transmission.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by tehjoker on Monday December 20, 2021 @01:16PM (#29627947)
It's not that I disagree, it's more I wanted the convo to not get into controversial tangents.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by ineedasername on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:30PM (#29619133)
In this case, it's neither good nor bad news because there is insufficient data. Per the article:

So far, the data are scarce and incomplete

The rest of the article consists of anecdotes that could point in either direction. If you want good news, check out the piece from WaPo from a few days ago [0]

Just keep in mind the scarce and incomplete factor. Give it another 2-3 weeks and we'll know more. Meanwhile it's probably not a good time to stop whatever precautions you have already been taking.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/14/south-africa...

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by Retric on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:34PM (#29619168)
Many people take longer to die of COVID than has elapsed since the first Omicron variant was discovered. We simply don’t know at this point, and won’t for probably 2 months.

Extrapolating from hospitalization rates and limited sample sizes is mostly just guesswork. It’s probably not much worse, but beyond that is up in the air.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by epgui on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:40PM (#29619245)
The rationale for the bar being at different heights is:

1) the “precautionary principle”

2) the consequence asymmetry: if we’re vigilant at a time when we could relax, the consequence is small, but if we relax when we should increase vigilance, the consequence is larger.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by nradov on Sunday December 19, 2021 @08:05PM (#29620451)
The precautionary principle is garbage. If our hominid ancestors had followed the precautionary principle they would have never come down out of the trees. Embrace risk and accept the consequences.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by epgui on Sunday December 19, 2021 @10:55PM (#29621406)
By the same evolutionary fallacy, you should always trust your gut feeling instead of thinking rationally, because the more primitive centres of your brain are more similar to the parts of the brain that allowed our ancestors to survive in the jungle.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by nradov on Monday December 20, 2021 @01:56AM (#29622149)
Trusting your gut has nothing to do with it. Rational thinkers understand that trying to reduce risk too far is counterproductive.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by epgui on Monday December 20, 2021 @07:49AM (#29624300)
It was a separate example of the logical fallacy.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by sega_sai on Sunday December 19, 2021 @04:54PM (#29618798)
I disagree with your statement, but here are the results for the whole UK https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-variants...

and here's the plot for London https://twitter.com/theosanderson/status/1471907339397738502

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by the-dude on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:04PM (#29618900)
Why is the delta graph blocky and the omicron one smooth?
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by matthewmacleod on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:26PM (#29619103)
This looks like the weekend reporting artefact - you can see that Delta cases are lower at the weekend. You can actually see the same effect show itself as a small slowdown in the growth of the Omicron series, but since it’s a rapidly climbing figure it’s a bit harder to make out.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by parkingrift on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:03PM (#29618887)
Interesting. Thanks for the link. Do you happen to know of equivalent data for NYC? I’m apparently not adept at finding this information.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by downWidOutaFite on Sunday December 19, 2021 @04:51PM (#29618776)
I don't think that's right, we all heard the tentative good news as soon as it was available. I think the bias is that there is a massive thirst for certainty and definitive conclusions for each new pandemic development, but science does not work that fast. There's also a bias towards wanting your political side to be proven correct, but the virus doesn't care and has proven all predictions and conclusions wrong at one point or another.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by parkingrift on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:04PM (#29618902)
Perhaps so. I’m just on the lookout for good news, and it seems the good news is always wrapped up in caution tape. Maybe I’m just bitter.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by throwhauser on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:19PM (#29619033)
> Seems the evidence bar for bad news is quite low, but the bar for good news is unbelievably high.

It seems safer to believe bad news, and remain wary, than to believe good news and drop your guard.

Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by rsynnott on Sunday December 19, 2021 @09:50PM (#29621065)
There isn’t much good news, or at least not great news. It seems likely that it’s not _worse_ than delta, and there’s some early evidence that it might be slightly better (eg the 30% lower hospitalisation thing). And it seems like existing vaccines and prior infections are probably at least somewhat protective against severe disease. That’s all good in that it’s not as bad as it could have been; the very worst case scenarios seem to have been all but ruled out. But it’s certainly not good enough for anyone to be feeling particularly optimistic now.
Re:How severe are Omicron Infections? by mint2 on Sunday December 19, 2021 @05:50PM (#29619340)
This article summarized the studies and the results are mixed. Not really sure what good news there is yet, aside that it does not appear worse.

Unvaccinated who haven’t had the virus should be very worried due to the transmission. For people with some immunity, the jury is out but personally I am not looking forward to probable mild Covid, until recently I thought I had a good chance of simply not catching it due to being vaccinated. that seems to be no longer the case.