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Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by paulryanrogers on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:04PM (#29615697)
> People who support lockdowns aren't interested in facts; their viewpoints are shaped by marketing.

Sweeping generalizations aren't really adding to the discussion here. Please assume the best of others. We're all trying to find the best way forward with incomplete information. And tying ideas too closely to ones identity, or that of others, won't help us adapt as more evidence come to light.

Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by dexen on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:18PM (#29615856)
>Sweeping generalizations aren't really adding to the discussion here

That sentiment fits individualist views and policies, where it behooves us to hear out individuals and consider them on their individual merits.

However the view and policy discussed (limitations on individuals for common good) is explicitly a collectivist view and policy. Applying a sweeping generalization to a collectivist view and policy is fit and proper by the very nature of collectivism.

Edit: corrected a typo from "individuals" to "individualist".

Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by paulryanrogers on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:31PM (#29616023)
It is possible that people who support(ed) lockdowns are not motivated solely by marketing. The original quote calls out people, not views.
Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by throwaway_2009 on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:36PM (#29616070)
I disagree.

It is not possible because it is not possible to arrive at the stance via logic.

If not for the marketing campaign; certainly if not for the "original sin" of Italy's lockdown; we wouldn't even be speaking about this.

If coronavirus were highly transmissible ebola it would make sense. It's just not, most of us know tens or hundreds of people who've had it at this point (the UK has a _confirmed_ case rate of over 17%).

Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by astrange on Sunday December 19, 2021 @01:13PM (#29616537)
The original “lockdowns” were literally good for some businesses. Conventions and restaurants would have failed (they can’t survive on 10% attendance) but can’t get out of their vendor contracts without the government canceling for them.
Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by throwaway_2009 on Sunday December 19, 2021 @01:16PM (#29616567)
Attendance dropped due to lockdowns and the fear campaign.

I was there, remember? The pubs were rammed, Boris started saying "don't do X", numbers decreased a lot, he said "we make this legal now", the world stopped.

I'm bored of debating this now so whatever, all I get online is a stream of trolls. Good luck.

Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by astrange on Sunday December 19, 2021 @01:21PM (#29616620)
No, attendance dropped in 2020 because nobody wants to get sick. This would be true if there was a flu pandemic as well.

(And because of travel bans. But the anti-lockdown people mostly support those because that’s the ironic position.)

Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by throwaway_2009 on Sunday December 19, 2021 @01:29PM (#29616730)
This comment does not represent the reality I live in. Nice try.
Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by astrange on Sunday December 19, 2021 @01:42PM (#29616882)
I’m sorry you live in the UK. That must be very difficult for you.

In other places we weren’t nearly so concerned about shutting down pubs; actually the bad case that often happened in the US was leaving bars open (for tax revenue) but closing schools (because parents and teachers are more neurotic than bar goers).

Still I haven’t met a whole lot of people complaining they weren’t allowed to work. Our stimulus worked quite well there.

I don’t think lockdowns are necessary or reasonable in 2022 but at least, as someone temporarily in the UK, I’ll be able to get out of my local family trying to make me see some ridiculously quaint British thing called a “panto”.

Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by paulryanrogers on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:58PM (#29616357)
It's illogical to consider lockdowns when hospitals are overwhelmed by a highly contagious respiratory disease?
[dead]
Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by paulryanrogers on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:39PM (#29616104)
> They have malicious intentions a priori because they treat controlling others with the same level of discipline as they would choosing which flavour of jam to put on their toast in the morning.

Not everyone advocating lockdowns is necessarily so flippant about it. Some consider the costs carefully. Please keep in mind that hospitals were being overwhelmed long before vaccines were available.

(FWIW I'm not defending absolute lockdowns since going outside with moderate distancing appears to have been safe at every stage of this phenomenon.)

Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by throwaway_2009 on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:40PM (#29616132)
If you want to lockdown, you can lockdown, and now you are safe. You don't need others to do so, the virus does not travel through windows and walls.

As such the stance is definitionally illogical which makes it flippant - it falls apart under even mild scrutiny.

I've seen about a billion variations on it now, it just gets boring to bat them off. e.g. "if the healthcare system is overwhelmed, you'll die in a minor car crash, so don't go outside, then you won't drive your car or stand near cars, then you can't die in a minor car crash anyway, err... but lockdown though!".

It's tautologically broken. The basic premise is of "not doing X, in order to not do X".

Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by paulryanrogers on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:43PM (#29616170)
People still need emergency rooms. If those are overwhelmed then anyone needing emergency care will suffer.
Re:Children born in the pandemic have significantly reduced ... by throwaway_2009 on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:48PM (#29616218)
I've addressed this in my comment already.

If we don't lock down and you break your leg, you may not get medical attention.

So let's lock down so that it's impossible to break your leg.

I'm totally happy to accept that contracting coronavirus could be triaged lower than acute chronic conditions, heart attacks, etc, that's an interesting debate to have because healthcare is scarce and therefore an ordering _must_ be chosen.

What makes no sense is just flinging our hands up and saying "well, stop the world for everyone instead".