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Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by TrispusAttucks on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:12AM (#29592376)
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

~ George Orwell, 1984

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by toxik on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:19AM (#29592472)
Whenever you think that you’re on the outside looking in, seeing the world for what it is while others seem blind, you should reconsider your perspective.

The Chinese people is not some herd of sheep without mental faculties. I wince when I see quotes like these spoken about a people of literal billions.

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by CWuestefeld on Friday December 17, 2021 @10:20AM (#29593317)
Whenever you think that you’re on the outside looking in, seeing the world for what it is while others seem blind, you should reconsider your perspective.

My wife's an immigrant, having grown up in Shanghai during the cultural revolution. She's got countless stories of how she was systematically lied to the entire time. For example, when she was little she was taught that children in America were largely starving too death, which the children of China were lucky that the leadership of Chairman Mao had brought them such bounty.

My wife's family was systematically persecuted, in part because of their cosmopolitan exposure (her uncle was already in America, and her father was a sea captain traveling the world). Every member of her extended family, other than her grandmother, spent time in prison or work camps. I've read the forced "confession" documents from some of her family.

All through this time, we know that China has been consistently suppressing information about the Tienanmen Square massacre, for example.

While under Deng's regime the pendulum started to swing back toward freedom a bit, it's completely reversed again over the past several years under Xi. On a number of occasions my wife's own communications to her family in China have been filtered (e.g., postings on WeChat being removed after the fact, or email attachments being stripped out of messages).

Your point that we need to be cautious about assuming that others are blinded while we have a unique ability to see the truth is well taken. But I think in this case it's really warranted.

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by killjoywashere on Friday December 17, 2021 @01:42PM (#29596400)
I wonder how much business Western cyber companies have with China? If I recall, the Great Firewall was actually started by a US company built out of either an IARPA or DARPA project. It wasn’t until many years later that DoD started using similar products, only then after they jailed (Shawn Carpenter).
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by javajosh on Friday December 17, 2021 @10:25AM (#29593405)
>The Chinese people [are] not some herd of sheep without mental faculties.

Meta: sure doesn't take much bad faith to sour a good debate! "One bad apple spoils the bunch," they say.

One of the two core ideas in 1984 is a) the extreme plasticity of the human mind, and b) that power finds its ultimate expression using that plasticity to cause suffering. The ruling society of 1984, the "inner circle", as represented by O'Brien, is highly self-aware (also, insane). The people, like Smith, are not sheep although he, like everyone else around him, must act like one on command, by threat of force.

To characterize the victims of 1984 as sheep is miss the stunning evil of the antagonists, which is that they first found ways to make people act that way on a gross level, and who are now methodically finding ways to make them act that way on a subtle, universal level.

Perhaps you, and rugged individualists like you, believe you wouldn't have anything to worry about under such a regime, and by extension if you accuse a population of actually suffering under such a regime, then it is an attack on them. I encourage you to consider the possibility that your hypothesis is wrong. Namely that you would not, by hypothesis, have survived the events of 1984. And that doesn't make you, or anyone, sheep.

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by justicezyx on Friday December 17, 2021 @10:49AM (#29593790)
The point in 1984 is that *everyone* can fall victim to mental manipulation, and an observer can discover the manipulation easily. Like American sees the hypocrisy of Chinese democracy, and, equally, Chinese seeing the hypocrisy of American one. They are virtually identical in the observation, and both sides can easily convince themselves of their own conviction.

God, I only wish this time the leaders from the both sides are responsible ones, people like Trump on both sides can easily make wars in a wink of eyes with both sides seeing each other this way.

The sideline point is that one is the worst judge of themselves...

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by gmadsen on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:55AM (#29592956)
I'm beginning to think this is an intentional tactic made in bad faith. Criticisms of the CCP are not criticisms of Chinese people. This was used two years ago regarding the cover up by the CCP of the Wuhan Lab.

Direct parallels can be seen in US discourse regarding the actions of the Israeli government being equated to antisemitism.

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by wizzwizz4 on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:22AM (#29592515)
> The Chinese people is not some herd of sheep without mental faculties.

Have you read 1984? Neither are the Party members. (And also, the quote doesn't mention the people.)

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by inglor_cz on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:52AM (#29592920)
"The Chinese people is not some herd of sheep without mental faculties"

Neither were inhabitants of all the other nations where totalitarian regimes seized power, but it did not help them.

Totalitarian systems are really adept at controlling people. It is a matter of survival for them.

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by bboygravity on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:41AM (#29592762)
Except the quote isn't criticizing people. It's criticizing the political party which is defined by 1 person. Not billions.

The (Chinese) people are the victims in this.

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by nasmorn on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:23AM (#29592533)
The Chinese people will surely not write about the Americans like this. 1984 is banned there.
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by bildung on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:28AM (#29592586)
That's apparently wrong, and your comment thus a wonderful example of what toxik meant.
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by nasmorn on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:38AM (#29592727)
Apparently nowadays you can buy a physical book but not talk about it online. Guess my conclusion still stands.
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by notRobot on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:31AM (#29592628)
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by oolonthegreat on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:39AM (#29592742)
maybe not the book itself, but if you read the article you'll see that even weirder stuff are banned:

The government disallows the publication of any work by Liu Xiaobo, the determined critic of the Communist Party who in 2017 became the first Nobel Peace Prize winner since Nazi times to die in prison. Again, for a time last year Chinese citizens could not type 19, 80, and four in sequence—but they could, and still can, buy a copy of 1984, the most famous novel on authoritarianism ever written. Prefer Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World? They can buy that text, too, just as easily, although its title also joined the taboo list last winter.

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by bostonsre on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:34AM (#29592668)
Do you know of any examples of descent against the government that ended well for those that spoke up? I highly doubt the people are sheep and I'm pretty positive I would act in the same exact way and keep my mouth shut in order to live my life if I was living in a country with an oppressive government.
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by flohofwoe on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:51AM (#29592895)
The collapse of the Eastern European socialist countries 30 years ago is an excellent example. But it only works when the general public had suffered enough and isn't willing to support the regime anymore. And the economic situation needs to get worse for one or two generations, it won't happen overnight and in a working economy. A few dissidents "speaking up" to incite change is a romantic idea, but it's not enough.
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by hdjjhhvvhga on Friday December 17, 2021 @10:29AM (#29593469)
It's a kind of miracle it happened in most these countries without bloodshed. You need to mobilize large parts of society and have a favorable political situation to perform a coup like this without a civil war.
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by bostonsre on Friday December 17, 2021 @03:49PM (#29598175)
Yea, I meant in China but those examples you provided definitely illustrate how unlikely it will be to happen in China. It's pretty sad and I can't imagine having such a bleak future, especially for those that are more oppressed than others over there.
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by dpratt on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:36AM (#29592693)
So, should the outside observers who noticed the mass hysteria, death and destruction in Russia, Germany, Cambodia, Myanmar, Romania, Turkey and myriad other examples during the 20th century just have realized that they needed to "reconsider their perspective"? It's entirely possible, and in fact, highly probable, that entire mass groups of people can be manipulated into collective insanity quite easily. That doesn't make them sheep, it makes them Human, and it's up to us to be aware of this aspect of our collective psychology and point it out where visible.
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by dqpb on Friday December 17, 2021 @10:09AM (#29593159)
> The Chinese people is not some herd of sheep without mental faculties.

Can Chinese people freely communicate with each other? The ability to do so is critical for unimpaired mental faculties of the collective.

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by doodlebugging on Friday December 17, 2021 @10:08AM (#29593149)
>about a people of literal billions.

I think that so far there, billion is singular since the population of China is only about 1.5 billion. The population growth rate is also in decline and has been for a while.

One and a half billion is still a big number though.

Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by roastytoasty on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:21AM (#29592511)
You do not know how easy it is to control mass populations. Open a history book
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by jaywalk on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:39AM (#29592736)
You don't even need to open a history book. Just open a newspaper.
Re:President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment by slig on Friday December 17, 2021 @09:44AM (#29592807)
Just open the window and look outside.