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Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by Veen on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @06:52AM (#29564707)
> Let’s give all your data to governments under the guise of protecting children

But that's precisely what Apple's CSAM implementation doesn't do. It compares on-device image hashes with hashes of known CP images. It affords more privacy than other methods, which Apple is probably using anyway and which other cloud services are definitely using.

https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by zionic on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @09:23AM (#29566309)
>It compares on-device image hashes with hashes of known CP images.

No, it compares against hashes supplied by a government agency (NCMEC). Apple has no way to verify the hashes are in fact CP, as it is only re-hashing hashes.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by treesknees on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @09:46AM (#29566616)
But once it reaches some non-defined threshold, it's Apple who reviews the content not the government. They don't have a way to verify the hashes, but they would have a way to verify the content which matches the hashes.

Presumably at this stage is where malicious hashes would be detected and removed from the database.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by zionic on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @10:01AM (#29566823)
> it's Apple who reviews the content not the government.

An unaccountable "Apple Employee" who is likely (in the US and other countries) to be a LEO themselves will see a "visual derivative" aka a 50x50px greyscale copy of your content.

There is no mechanism to prevent said "employee" from hitting report 100% of the time, and no recourse if they falsely accuse you. The system is RIPE for abuse.

>Presumably at this stage is where malicious hashes would be detected and removed from the database.

Collision attacks have already been demonstrated. I could produce a large amount of false positives by modifying legal adult porn to collide with neural hashes. Anyone could spread these images on adult sites. Apple "employees" that "review" the "image derivatives" will then, even when acting honestly, forward you to prosecution.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by Veen on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @10:30AM (#29567227)
> and no recourse if they falsely accuse you

Of course there is. The judicial system.

(Although, to be clear. I don't live in America and I might be more worried about this if I did.)

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by zionic on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @12:43PM (#29569147)
Doesn't that put you in the position of suing apple after you've:

1) Spent who knows how long in jail

2) Lost your job

3) Defaulted on your mortgage

4) Been divorced

5) Had you reputation ruined

Money can't fix everything, and trusting the courts to make you whole years after the fact is a foolish strategy.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by akyoan on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @11:01AM (#29567814)
Yes but no one wants the finger pointed at themselves. Even if innocence is proven, someone will go through your files and you will have to deal with the law.

The recourse should be before this reaches the law.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by junon on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @11:20AM (#29567999)
> Presumably at this stage is where malicious hashes would be detected and removed from the database.

How, if 1) the original content is never provided to Apple, and 2) the offending content on consumer devices is never uploaded to Apple?

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by kemayo on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @01:00PM (#29569357)
You're misunderstanding the proposed system. The entire system as-described only runs on content that's in the process of being uploaded to Apple -- it's part of the iCloud Photos upload system. Apple stores all this content encrypted on their servers, but it's not E2E so they have a key.

This entire system was a way for Apple to avoid decrypting your photos on their servers and scanning them there.

Hypothetically, if Apple implemented this system and switched to E2E for the photo storage, you'd be more private overall because Apple would be incapable of seeing anything about your photos until you tripped these hash matches, as opposed to the status quo where they can look at any of your photos whenever they feel like it. (And the hash matches only include a "visual derivative" which we assume means a low res thumbnail.) I say hypothetically because Apple never said this was their plan.

You can argue about whether or not Apple should be doing this. But it does seem to be fairly standard in the cloud file storage industry.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by junon on Thursday December 16, 2021 @05:18AM (#29576825)
I never heard that Apple was decrypting the original content at all. That implies that there is a team at Apple looking at child pornography all day. Not sure how that's even legal. It was my understanding that CSAM systems were simply hash based and 'hits' were reported to authorities. Do you have a source for them decrypting information?
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by kemayo on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:04AM (#29579575)
Here's a summary of how their proposed system was supposed to work: https://educatedguesswork.org/posts/apple-csam-intro/ (if you want to skim it, search for mentions of "manual review" and "visual derivative")

I suspect the key would be that there'd be a team verifying that something is actually child pornography, because the system is a perceptual hash rather than a strict comparing-bytes so before someone looks at it they're not certain.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by aunty_helen on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @05:15PM (#29572272)
No thanks, I'll give up my iphone before it gets to this stage. Not an experiment that I'm willing to partake in.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by treis on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @09:46AM (#29566611)
There was a manual review step if the hashes triggered.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by specialist on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @10:56AM (#29567716)
Exactly. Apple doesn't want to be in the unenviable position of making that judgement (is a hotdog or not).

As a taxpayer and customer, I concur. I'm glad someone is doing that job. But I don't want it to be a corporation.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by nomel on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @01:21PM (#29569647)
A third party reviewer would confirm the images weren't just hash conflicts, then file a police report, according to the documentation.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by zionic on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @02:33PM (#29570561)
>third party reviewer

A "third party" paid by apple who is totally-not-a-cop who sees a 50x50pz grayscale "image derivative" is in charge of hitting "is CP" or "Is not CP".

I don't understand how anyone can have faith in such a design.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by nomel on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @03:12PM (#29571015)
That's incorrect. That's the Apple reviewer. After that, it goes to further review by NCMEC, where it's verified. NCMEC is the only one legally capable of verifying it, fully, and they're the ones that file the police report.

So, to get flagged, you need many hash collisions destined for iCloud. Then, to get reported, some number must get a false positives in the Apple review, and then some number must somehow fail the full review by NCMEC.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by zionic on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @11:49PM (#29575015)
I envy your naïveté. My world would be so much less complex with your child-like acceptance.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by nomel on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:00PM (#29586316)
You’re assuming quite a bit here. I never claimed to have faith in the system, and there could be problems with the review process, but it’s best to talk about how things are, from an informed perspective.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by kingcharles on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @01:21PM (#29569642)
Also, can we create hashes that are not CSA and match CSA?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/12/15271874/ai-adversarial-i...

If we can, then, hypothetically we need to get non-CSA images onto important people's iPhones so they get arrested, jailed for years and have their lives ruined by Apple.

Disclaimer: I buy Apple products.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by kingcharles on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @01:23PM (#29569672)
I have another problem with this. In a lot of jurisdictions virtual CSA images are legal. i.e. cartoons and images created entirely in CG.

These images can be 100% indistinguishable from the real thing. Without knowing the source of the images that they are putting in the database, how do they know the images are actually illegal?

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by 1cvmask on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @07:06AM (#29564832)
How about we expand the list of known CP images, under force, to include many non-CP images.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by sweetheart on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @07:12AM (#29564884)
Then the myriad other tech companies that scan the images uploaded to their platforms will be alerted of supposed illicit images being uploaded. This isn't new. No one's lives have been ruined by this and it's been practice for years now.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by zionic on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @09:25AM (#29566331)
>No one's lives have been ruined by this

This is a strong claim with zero evidence. The social costs of defending an accused perpetrator of this nature are insanely high.

While we're making unsubstantiated claims, I assert that intelligence agencies routinely exploit this. My only substantiation is that it's obvious and I would if I worked for them.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by yunesj on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @10:56AM (#29567729)
Ian Freemen is a controversial political activist whose pro-liberty, pro-bitcoin radio station was raided by the FBI in 2016 and had their equipment confiscated. It was widely covered in the news, he was kicked out of at least one community organization, and last I heard, they still didn't have all their equipment back.

No charges were ever filed, and the media outlets didn't bother to update their articles.

I think false accusations happen, especially to controversial figures, and assume most victims just don't want to call much attention to it.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by kemayo on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @01:13PM (#29569544)
Isn't this a separate issue to the one the grandparent was complaining about? I can't see anything about child porn related to this person, just a lot of talk about money laundering.

Also, are you sure there were no charges filed? Some cursory googling turns up articles including a PDF of the indictment [1] and more-recent articles seem to refer to an ongoing process [2].

[1]: https://manchesterinklink.com/fbi-descends-on-keene-and-surr...

[2]: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/bitcoin-ian-freeman-...

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by sweetheart on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @10:28AM (#29567188)
We have literally no reason to think it's an issue. The burden of proof is on those who believe its a threat, not those who believe it isn't.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by zionic on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @12:41PM (#29569121)
"Burden of proof"? Seems like it's pretty hard to prove what intelligence agencies are doing.

Also, there's the fun "you can't sue us because you have no standing/can't show harm, and showing harm to prove you have standing would be illegal".

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by sweetheart on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @01:27PM (#29569726)
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by Grustaf on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @09:31AM (#29566407)
Why would they want to entrap people with fake child porn images? What would even be the point of getting people flagged? They would never be convicted anyway, since they are not actually storing illegal images.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by Syonyk on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @10:14AM (#29567023)
It doesn't matter.

What matters is that the person is arrested, that their name is leaked to the mainstream news media, and that they're dragged through the mud - the same as seems to happen in literally every other child porn case.

The actual guilt or innocence doesn't matter at that point. Their lives have been sufficiently ruined, and, if they are actually innocent, the message has been clearly sent.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by Grustaf on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @10:24AM (#29567144)
Do you have any examples of that happening, innocent people getting arrested for child porn? Never heard of it.

In any case, the police will not arrest anyone because they have only been flagged by the automatic system. As soon as Apple reviews the images that triggered the flagging, they will see that they aren't actually child porn, and hence they won't even contact the police.

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by yunesj on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @10:59AM (#29567774)
I recently described an example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29567729
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by Grustaf on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @01:32PM (#29569802)
Seems they went after him for other things

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2021/08/bitcoin-ian-free...

Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by kingcharles on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @02:03PM (#29570227)
As I stated in a reply above, I guarantee that this database contains a number of non-real-CP images already that are just CG.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by Veen on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @07:13AM (#29564888)
The same is true of the technology that can find photos of cats on your device. It can be abused, but smartphones and cloud services are packed with technology that could be abused by a motivated bad actor. If you're worried about it, you're better off not using a smartphone at all.
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by elliekelly on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @10:59AM (#29567782)
Why do you not consider hashes of my photos to be my data?
Re:Apple removes references to CSAM from its child safety w... by Veen on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @11:08AM (#29567916)
That's an interesting question. I have no idea who "owns" hashes. Does the copyright on a photo transfer to hashes of the photo? Is a hash a derivative work? Regardless, I am sure that somewhere in the terms and conditions you give Apple the right to copy, move, and process your photos and probably hashes of them too.