News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by truthwhisperer on Sunday December 12, 2021 @05:29PM (#29534352)
instead of peak oil this model suggests we are now in peak population? Funny

Interesting package. Neat work

Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by shoo on Sunday December 12, 2021 @08:29PM (#29535566)
Other important state variables in the model are the stocks of "non renewable resources" and "pollution".

From memory I believe one of the ideas in the world model is that over time, as existing stocks of non-renewables are consumed, the remaining stocks of non-renewable resources become more expensive for society to access. E.g. EROI [1] for fossil fuel deposits decreasing. Similarly when mining ore, if the richer ore deposits have all being exhausted, then only lower-grade ore remains, so maybe you need to expend more energy blasting and moving 2x or 3x as much rock as a few decades ago to obtain the same output of metal.

So the idea is that at some point it starts to become more and more expensive -- in terms of the energy input required -- to produce resources that society requires to exist in a steady-state, let alone to continue to fuel growth of the physical economy.

Similarly for pollution -- e.g. for global warming you can regard the atmosphere as a stock where you can store some finite amount of CO_2 pollution before it really starts creating a mess. Once there isn't much stock of cheap CO_2 pollution storage capacity remaining in the atmosphere, you have to start figuring out something else to do, which consumes more energy.

The increasing energy costs of extracting enough non-renewables and dealing with pollution to fuel society leaves less energy for everything else. At some point the energy required for industrial output grows to the extent that there is no longer sufficient energy left for services such as healthcare, education, etc. Therefore the quality of healthcare and education falls off. That has consequences for the human population.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_return_on_investment

Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by TrispusAttucks on Sunday December 12, 2021 @10:16PM (#29536201)
You're right on. People often think peak oil means no more oil. Really it just means it's no longer energy positive investment.

[1] The EROI for fossil fuels has decreased as the availability of oil, coal, gas has reduced and the cost of production increased. Fracking for oil or gas (as has been done in Taranaki for years) is expensive and polluting. Extracting oil from the tar sands in northern Canada is a similarly destructive process. So, what was an EROI of 100:1 last century is now sometimes little more than 10:1.

[1] https://www.newsroom.co.nz/why-hydrogen-is-not-a-cure-for-em...

Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by actually_a_dog on Monday December 13, 2021 @03:54AM (#29537921)
Eh. There's no practical difference between "no oil left the ground" and "it's too expensive and/or energy intensive to pump out any more oil."
Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by comicjk on Monday December 13, 2021 @09:09AM (#29539680)
There is a difference if new technology can be introduced, which is what happened last time. Conventional oil production peaked in 2006.
Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by bencollier49 on Monday December 13, 2021 @01:52AM (#29537386)
Yes. Checking this via various sources online shows that the predictions are that capital intensity will reach 50% of all investment by 2020, at which point the collapse begins.

https://sustainable.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/00...

Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by navaati on Monday December 13, 2021 @02:24AM (#29537525)
On the other hand, population levels reducing (via education and stability) will reduce the amount of resources globally needed, and the loss of workforce can be compensated by technology. That can lead us to a scenario that's perfectly fine despite a high cost of resources.
Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by actually_a_dog on Monday December 13, 2021 @03:51AM (#29537913)
There are 2 scenarios in the original Limits to Growth that encapsulate this:

1. The "comprehensive technology" scenario in which population stabilizes, food production increases to keep pace, pollution eventually drops to essentially zero, and industrial output actually decreases as a result of increased efficiency.

2. The "stabilized world" scenario, where population, industrial output, and food output all stabilize quickly, and pollution also eventually drops to 0.

The difference between these 2 scenarios is essentially that in the latter, technology does not progress fast enough to save us, but we are able to put the brakes on and save ourself; while, in the former, increases in efficiency due to technology are what allows us to stave off collapse.

Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by jeffparsons on Sunday December 12, 2021 @06:44PM (#29534903)
You may enjoy this TED talk about the global population leveling off: https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_religions_and_babies/...

It's where I first heard the term "peak child" or "peak baby" to describe this.

Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by ausbah on Sunday December 12, 2021 @05:53PM (#29534541)
maybe it's referring to how the rate of change of population growth is decreasing?
Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by errcorrectcode on Sunday December 12, 2021 @06:06PM (#29534636)
Global population stopped accelerating (had an inflection point, or: the "second derivative" went from a positive to a negative value) in the early 1960's. And so, overall population growth has been slowing ever since. It's difficult to say if or when population will reach a new, lower carrying capacity.

It's curious that population growth peaked in most Axis countries before Allied ones in WW2. It would make sense if each country's values were more aligned with others in their faction.

Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by dane-pgp on Sunday December 12, 2021 @08:08PM (#29535455)
Another inflection point could arguably be the year in which global fertility levels reach less than replacement level. Technically the global population can keep growing after that point, just by people living longer, but if life expectancy starts reverting to the mean then birth rates will have already past the threshold for decreasing global population. Here's what a recent Economist article says:

"The world’s fertility rate, which stood at 3.5 births per woman in the mid-1980s, fell to just 2.4 in 2019. Indeed it is possible, given observed declines in rich-world births during the pandemic, that covid-19 may have pushed the world as a whole within sight of a replacement-level fertility rate, if only temporarily."

https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2021/12/11/w...

Re:Predict civilization collapse with Python and World3 model by pugworthy on Sunday December 12, 2021 @07:08PM (#29535082)
> Funny

Can you extrapolate on what you mean by this?