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Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by MrBuddyCasino on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:06PM (#29514064)
Programmer productivity. As long as this is the bottleneck in determining market success of a product, this tradeoff will continue.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by pjmlp on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:51PM (#29514683)
Comparing Delphi and C++ Builder with modern SPAs, or dealing with the Kubernetes boilerplate doesn't really sound that productive to me.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by nradov on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:48PM (#29514641)
Programmer productivity has gotten worse. None of the development tools in widespread use today is as productive as Visual Basic or Delphi were back in 1996.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by keyle on Friday December 10, 2021 @04:03PM (#29515425)
Have you ever wondered why?

It's because today isn't about programmer productivity.

It's about enabling teams to work together without tripping over their own feet and killing the business.

So much complexity to solve essentially what is a human problem.

It takes 5 people to do the job of 1 back then, and that's what the industry wants. No one would trust an individual.

Too much money flowed into this industry, leading to waste, as it became clearly a pillar of the future.

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by frostwarrior on Friday December 10, 2021 @09:52PM (#29517974)
It took many years to realize the role of software is to be flexible to maintain and modify at the code level.

That's the entire point of "soft"ware. Otherwise there would be no point on doing on a CPU what could be made on an integrated circuit 1000 times faster.

A single guy writing whatever code they decided to do, may create a good program. But as requirements change, and the ownership gets passed on, it quickly becomes a nightmare to modify or refactor.

Good code made in SlowScript® by a team based on consensus on architecture and coding style has more potential for success as a product than the fast and optimized spaghetti code made by the best hacker in the world.

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by anyfoo on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:53PM (#29514710)
This needs a lot of qualifiers. I can see that for web development maybe (I don't know, haven't done that for almost 10 years, but I can imagine given the constraints), but for system level programming for example I don't want to go back to the 90s. Not that Visual Basic or Delphi worked for that anyway.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by frostwarrior on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:10PM (#29518053)
Also, as the internet (and technology) grew in influence and popularity, the amound of usecases for them grew exponentially.

In the "golden era" computers were more or less advanced calculators. Now we (as a population) expect to give entertainment and give advice about our lifestyle, like we do with smartwatches or fitness devices.

That's a lot more complicated than writing text or inputting numbers into a grid

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by marttt on Saturday December 11, 2021 @12:50AM (#29518802)
> Now we (as a population) expect to give entertainment and give advice about our lifestyle, like we do with smartwatches or fitness devices.

I always think about Lindy effect [1] in this context: the life expectancy of a technology, idea or (in our case) a societal habit is proportional to its current age. It follows, then, that the idea of a multi-purpose computing device may also wear off in certain areas of life, or for certain types of people. Not always, not everywhere is there a need for complex or complicated devices or systems. There will always be people who seek or prefer a simpler, quieter life that involves as little technology as possible.

What's really interesting is that many of these people seem to have a remarkably deep understanding of technology, and great skills [2]. Possibly because of this knowledge, they're really clear (or, pedantic :) about what they don't need.

In the end, though, I've come to think that this may be more of a simple psychological preference (for less stimulation) than a rationalized choice. Who knows.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect

2: Some of the people I really look up to: http://collapseos.org/, http://joeyh.name/, https://sassenrath.com/

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by badsectoracula on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:16PM (#29514948)
Technically Delphi could have worked but you'd need to use your own RTL and aside from a few additional language feature, you'd be losing 99% of what Delphi offered anyway.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by analognoise on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:18PM (#29514972)
Lazarus and FreePascal would beg to differ:

https://www.lazarus-ide.org

Everything you ever loved about Delphi 7, but with a ton of modernization. LGPL, too!

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by beamatronic on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:28PM (#29515076)
Serious question: Can you make "Netflix money", er, "FAANG money", as a Lazarus developer?
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by datalus on Friday December 10, 2021 @04:02PM (#29515420)
No, but all those people making "Netflix money" aren't really changing technology, are they? I'd argue FAANG is stagnating it, and telling themselves differently.

I guess if you want to make gobs of cash, fine. You could also just go into finance and make more than FAANG money if you're talented enough.

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by umanwizard on Friday December 10, 2021 @05:22PM (#29516172)
Facebook is a major contributor (sometimes the primary one) to many famous open-source projects: Linux, mercurial, MySQL, React, jemalloc, PyTorch, GraphQL, and probably several others I’m not thinking of.

They’re also one of the top AI/ML research institutions in the world with a huge chunk of the papers published at top conferences.

Similar statements are also true of Google.

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by gibolt on Friday December 10, 2021 @04:18PM (#29515561)
I'd argue that Microsoft, Google and Apple have enabled massive growth in technology. New uses for OSs, new places for them to run, and ways to make starting far more accessible/collaborative.

Even if there is 2 step forwards, one step back, the overall benefit of options available due to the vast number of people contributing their creativity is only possible due to these companies.

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by selfhoster11 on Friday December 10, 2021 @11:09PM (#29518332)
They enabled new users for computers, and killed desktop computing in the process. I don't think the trade off is with it.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by dukeofdoom on Friday December 10, 2021 @05:51PM (#29516460)
Skype was originally written in delphi.

"Microsoft will acquire Skype, the leading Internet communications company, for $8.5 billion"

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by badsectoracula on Friday December 10, 2021 @04:17PM (#29515551)
No but that isn't because of Lazarus itself but because "Netflix/FAANG" doesn't use it as what it does isn't really in their business interests. Lazarus is mainly about making desktop applications. It can do web, etc but it isn't really a focus and you lose most of the visual functionality anyway (yeah ok, you can set up URL routing via the object inspector and connect DB components together, but 99% of the work is done via code anyway so it doesn't provide something better than what you'd find in more popular tools).
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by analognoise on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:49PM (#29518243)
There's a JS transpiler in the works for FreePascal, iirc.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by badsectoracula on Saturday December 11, 2021 @08:45AM (#29520787)
AFAIK pas2js doesn't fully support the full runtime library yet and i think the language isn't completely implemented. IMO the wasm target will be more interesting and was merged into the main branch earlier this year, though i don't know how usable it is.

Either way those are things that allow you to use Free Pascal code in the web on the client side, but they aren't really "Lazarus" things. Once the full RTL can be used via pas2js or wasm, it could be possible to make a web-based backend for LCL but that would feel kinda alien as you'd essentially be embedding a desktop application inside a web page.

It is also possible to make new form (object) designers for a new type of form (object) that acts more like a Flash page or something like that, but that would require a lot of work. On the other hand it might make making mobile apps better too.

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by Tozen on Saturday December 11, 2021 @12:08AM (#29518605)
Pas2JS already exists in the Free Pascal world. You can make applications with it. https://wiki.freepascal.org/pas2js

Also there are other Pascal to JavaScript transpilers, which use other dialects of Object Pascal, such as DWScript and Smart Pascal.

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by emptyparadise on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:07PM (#29518036)
Maybe everyone trying to make FAANG money is what drove tech into this mess.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by baq on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:46PM (#29515244)
google developed golang instead of improving pascal, so you probably can't. the two languages have surprisingly similar goals.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by vidarh on Friday December 10, 2021 @05:30PM (#29516238)
> the two languages have surprisingly similar goals.

Not so surprising, given the backgrounds of the key designers of Go, I feel. Griesemer even got his PhD under Mössenböck and Wirth.

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by pjmlp on Saturday December 11, 2021 @02:44AM (#29519279)
Griesemer PhD's is related to Oberon.

"A Programming Language for Vector Computers"

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.42....

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by vidarh on Saturday December 11, 2021 @07:20AM (#29520389)
I've read it. I "binged" on pretty much everything published by Wirth and Mössenböck's groups at one point. His work on Oberon really underlines the point that it's unsurprising that Go has similarities in terms of design goals.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by pjmlp on Saturday December 11, 2021 @07:24AM (#29520409)
Indeed, although the pursuit for minimalism is where my appreciation for Wirth's work kind of winds down.

As a user on an hypothetical Oberon workstation, I would rather have Active Oberon than Oberon-07 as official systems language.

Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by vidarh on Saturday December 11, 2021 @07:54AM (#29520550)
I do think he sometimes went too far, but I think the attitude was admirable in as much as it was driven not so much by opposition to these features but in recognition of his own lack of understanding of how to make various features efficient. Which made the languages less viable in their "pure" states for day to day use, certainly, but also great starting points.

I wish more language designers would at least think about simplicity and implementation consequences, even if I too would prefer to work in a language where after thinking about that they still implement hard to optimise features.

My favourite language is Ruby, pretty much the anti-thesis of a Wirthian language, and certainly not Go, so I'm not saying all of the parts carried over to Go are necessarily things I agree with either.

At the same time, Ruby is full of things I wish had been better specified or left out, and often I get the feeling that if Matz had been forced to at least consider simplicity more when Ruby started out, it'd be a cleaner, better language for it. E.g. for the most part the Ruby grammar makes for a language that is nice to write, but it has so many dark, and horrible corners that does nothing to make Ruby pleasant that are simply there because nobody cared enough simplicity. Favourite example: "% x " may look like a syntax error, but it's the quoted string "x" - space is a valid quote character; if that isn't messed up, "%\nx\n" is also valid and produces the quoted string "x"... LF is also a valid quote character... Contrived Ruby hello world:

    x=%
    hello world
    
    puts x
(mind the whitespace - put a space after that "%" and it's suddenly a syntax error because the string suddenly ends at the space after "hello"; fun times)
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by lr4444lr on Friday December 10, 2021 @07:31PM (#29517216)
Your evidence for this? It took a whole damn team to build a single website with "HTML programming" back then. Software was still shrinkwrapped. Modern platforms on web frameworks with CI/CD I think make today's dev a hell of a lot more productive.
Re:C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful by noobermin on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:29PM (#29514376)
Well in between the ads and google spying I often do not feel productive.