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Re:Is Web3 anything? by dzonga on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:35AM (#29507039)
succinctly said. all these web3 / crypto folks forget complex laws exist to prevent and remedy situations that can't be simply solved by smart contracts. most of the laws are so complex, we've professionals who specialise in them.
Re:Is Web3 anything? by Fordec on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:45AM (#29507105)
I've come to the acceptance that lawyers are to the legal system as software engineers are to technical systems. You pay people who specialize in knowing the ins and outs of a complex system so you can get on with your life as a citizen, founder, etc.

And people who espouse that we don't need laws or lawyers to run our society are making about as coherent sense as saying we can ship a unicorn entirely on no-code and without engineers. It's in the realm of possibilities, maybe, but it will be a house of cards ready to implode unless this mantra is, at best, sheepishly abandoned half way through the endeavor.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by robbedpeter on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:01AM (#29507205)
The trouble is that the systems are broken. The level of gatekeeping and lack of informed consent have made the legal system a mess. The lawyers are the ones writing the laws... for the benefit of the lawyers and the people with the highest bids.

In a fair system, sure, but the American financial legal system is bonkers. There's a reason people are looking for alternatives.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by Griffinsauce on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:10AM (#29507259)
Stated like this it comes across like a software rewrite, with all its inherent fallacies: underestimating the effort, misjudging the complexity of the original system and comparing known to unknown outcomes.

That's not to say it's inherently a bad idea, rewrites are sometimes useful but you need to acknowledge those factors.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by bcrosby95 on Friday December 10, 2021 @05:25AM (#29508355)
And the biggest one: anyone that undertakes it should be an expert in the existing system. Otherwise you're just the junior dev coming in and suggesting a rewrite in the language you know best.
Re:Is Web3 anything? by notahacker on Friday December 10, 2021 @04:48AM (#29508186)
It also sounds a lot like lawyers arguing that cybersecurity is broken, so you should replace part of your dev team with a new type of contract and some lawyers to enforce it

(I'd say this does't actually happen because lawyers aren't that daft, but then I remember really long EULAs with really silly clauses...)

Re:Is Web3 anything? by JohnWhigham on Friday December 10, 2021 @06:54AM (#29508842)
People need to stop using software analogies for everything.

It does not work for something like laws. You can't just go and change something the following month because you realized there's an edge case you forgot. All that constant churn will just erode the public's faith in the system.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by zaphar on Friday December 10, 2021 @07:26AM (#29509066)
The solution to a broken system is not to replace it with another equally broken system. It is to replace it with a better one. The argument from people who are skeptical of the entire premise of smart contracts is that it looks to them like a worse not better system.

I am a software engineer. I know full well what it takes to design a well functioning software system. I also know that software tends to ossify processes. Anyone who has ever tried to work against the software of another business knows how straight jacketed that can get. Putting these together my only reasonable conclusion is that smart contracts look like a terrible idea and I would never in a million years trust one.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by Fordec on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:17AM (#29507297)
Lawyers do not write laws. Politician, or at least the writing staff do.

To stick to the analogy I guess:

Lawyers -> Engineers

Policy Writers -> Architects

Politicians -> Executives, Directors, Sales and Marketing

Judges -> QA

Re:Is Web3 anything? by bobthepanda on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:28AM (#29507358)
Well, lawyers are the plurality of Congresspeople (though their share of Congress has declined over time) https://thepractice.law.harvard.edu/article/declining-domina...
Re:Is Web3 anything? by Fordec on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:32AM (#29507382)
And most (competent) tech leadership were previously technical and are leveraging their expertise also.
Re:Is Web3 anything? by mikeg8 on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:13AM (#29507269)
I think your comment, and the one you responded to, are both correct. If our legal/governing system was able to adapt more quickly and keep up with the pace of modern technological advances, we would all be better off. The challenge is, how?
Re:Is Web3 anything? by peoplefromibiza on Friday December 10, 2021 @07:27AM (#29509068)
> There's a reason people are looking for alternatives

But is this true?

some people have always looked for alternatives throughout history, but very few of them have become popular, most of them were a failure and a bunch of them completely destroyed societies, sometimes for centuries.

I might be completely wrong, but in my eyes the crypto-optimism looks like reverse luddism.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by cormacrelf on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:29AM (#29507364)
The laws are mostly fine. The process of getting justice when someone has broken them is the bigger problem. Unfortunately solving the problem of access to cheap and efficient justice is just not that glamorous. There’s not enough money in it, so let’s start again from scratch right?

Not to mention techno-libertarian anarcho-capitalism is the ideological driving force behind many decentralisation efforts (hello Bitcoin), which is kinda at odds with improving justice. Many people in the space actively wish to be outside the law. Those are the people who started looking for alternatives, everyone else will parrot any old extreme ideology like “get rid of courts” for a sweet well-paying gig.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by westoncb on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:40AM (#29507064)
I think there's also a substantial subset of cases that are simple/common/clear enough to have managed through an automated contract, and being able to cut out the cost of depending on the legal system would be game-changing for many people/projects/etc.

So it seems like a good complement, not a replacement.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by qaq on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:43AM (#29507095)
Yep cause the cost of people who can put together a smart contract without major bugs is peanuts :)
Re:Is Web3 anything? by westoncb on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:47AM (#29507124)
Fair point :) I was admittedly thinking of more DIY scenarios, but it isn't really fair to only consider how it impacts programmers.

OTOH—without knowing many concrete details myself—seems like there would be plenty of room for reuse of contracts? Maybe even something like a storefront where you can grab one that matches your scenario

Re:Is Web3 anything? by robbedpeter on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:57AM (#29507186)
As open source successes start to accumulate, the costs will go down. Reuse is incentivized as development on the cryptocurrency as opposed to a perpetually monetized rent extraction by regulators or "professionals."
Re:Is Web3 anything? by onion2k on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:19AM (#29507311)
As open source successes start to accumulate, the costs will go down.

That hasn't happened in any other area of open source. Linux is supported by billion dollar companies with hundreds-of-millions in revenue. Container software is supported by tech giants. Browsers are the same. Web frameworks are either from corporations or they're built by people who are sponsored to build them. Most successful open source projects have revenue streams from outside the project paying people to work on them. I'd even suggest that might be a requirement for a successful project. As the project grows and gains popularity the costs of running it go up massively.

In the case of all of those projects the usefulness and utility of the projects also goes up, so people are able to make money with them that pays for the developers, and that could happen for web3 tech. I'm not suggesting web3 won't go the same way, just that economies of scale don't rrally work for software development. The more popular a software project gets the more it costs to run, forever.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by myownpetard on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:15AM (#29507632)
I don't think they are talking about the cost of running an open source project. They are talking about the cost of creating and deploying a robust application. In that sense the cost has absolutely gone down. It's trivial to create a web application today in a way that would have been incredibly costly 20 years ago.

You don't have to pull a Paul Graham and invent a the concept of a web application for the first time. You can piggyback on decades of development and open source software and frameworks and libraries. One developer and create and deploy an application in a weekend that would take a team of engineers months to build 2000.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by robbedpeter on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:52AM (#29511306)
Yes, this exactly. Billion dollar companies contribute to open source because the model is a net economic driver. I can tap into decades long and billions of dollars of man hours of effort to offer systems admin consultation and earn a living deploying and managing open source software for people, or incorporate that into almost any business, or participate in hackathons that riff on the bleeding edge of ai or security or art. The only barrier to entry is ability and willingness to learn, and things like moocs and YouTube and Khan Academy have expanded the "open source" ethos into almost every real world endeavor.

Crypto is a nascent space that similarly enables people to bypass all the gatekeeping and institutional cruft in finance. It just turns out that a lot of the gatekeeping in finance is structurally important and intentional, so it may be a couple decades before any particular cryptocurrency is comparably robust and secure as well trusted fiat currencies like the usd or euro. A trustless and mature financial system that doesn't have the pitfalls of credit bureaus and arbitrary government policy chaos, that opens up microloans and honest banking for literally anyone, that gives opportunity to invest and trade and participate even at low levels of wealth - those are socially good things, in my view.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by qaq on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:48AM (#29507140)
I think you prob can raise a 10 mil seed round with this idea
Re:Is Web3 anything? by aserafini on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:33AM (#29507390)
But a smart contract is reusable.. (that applies to paper contracts though as well!)
Re:Is Web3 anything? by Griffinsauce on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:11AM (#29507261)
Can you give a practical example?
Re:Is Web3 anything? by d0gbread on Saturday December 11, 2021 @08:10AM (#29520619)
Countless defi loans provided in minutes.
Re:Is Web3 anything? by ButtSpark69 on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:56AM (#29507179)
You view the complexity of American law as a feature, not a bug??
Re:Is Web3 anything? by drusenko on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:24AM (#29507335)
Legacy code (aka the American legal system) is routinely despised by those new to the problem space. Most experienced programmers will know that the (new to them) code isn’t all flaws, despite its initial appearance - there are a myriad of embedded edge cases and branches that at first blush seem like cruft, but in reality are the result of learning from various failure modes.

As with any complex rewrite I suspect we are doomed to rediscover the rationale for the original design. Hopefully it will end up meaningfully better, and not a Digg 3.0.

Re:Is Web3 anything? by monkeydust on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:46AM (#29507117)
Agree, I think Wyomings attempt to fuse the two together is one to watch.

https://frostbrowntodd.com/wyoming-paves-way-for-dao-legal-c...

Re:Is Web3 anything? by gfodor on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:41AM (#29507080)
alternatively, maybe web3 / crypto folks haven't "forgotten" something so obvious as "complex laws and lawyers exist."
Re:Is Web3 anything? by davidgerard on Friday December 10, 2021 @08:05AM (#29509365)
The way they talk, it's unclear they ever realised it.