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Re:100 years of whatever this will be by __MatrixMan__ on Thursday December 02, 2021 @01:58PM (#29420752)
I like the analogy, but in many cases the societal ills that defi is trying to solve were caused by software in the first place (e.g. internet advertising as a democracy-eroder). Also, the protectors of the status-quo are putting a lot of software people to work in protecting that status quo, so tempting them to the other side means compatibility with their skillset. Lastly, anyone who would overturn the status quo must provide the people with an alternative that's at least as good. As underdogs, we can't afford to out-hire the banks, so the only way forward is to be more effective on a smaller manpower budget--which probably means leaning on crowd-sourced solutions mediated by software.

It's easy to fall into the trap you're describing, but that doesn't mean that that's what is happening. It looks like the battles here are genuinely shaping up to be fought in software.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by fragmede on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:19PM (#29421903)
I get where defi is coming from, and the regulations are onerous, but also those regulations were hard-fought for, and came about on the backs of real problems for real people, often by being exploited by people most accurately described as conmen. Caveat emptor, sure, but on the way from "investing your play money" to someone close to retirement's 401k, there's a much bigger pitfall.

The "battles" are shaping up to be fought the same way they were previously - regulations forcing big huge heavy disclaimers on financial products, cryptocoin-based or otherwise, that state that the returns stated are not actually guaranteed.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by dcow on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:00PM (#29422480)
I truly don’t think DeFi is, at its heart, anti-regulation. I do think a lot of early proponents are armchair anarchists, but that’s just the scene. I think it’s anti corruption/abuse of power by institutions too large to fail—often due to lack of meaningful regulatory political power, across the board. (You’ll probably easily find people playing with web3 dns also advocating for personal data regulations, for example.)

No, software can’t fix all of the institutional and political problems, but it can present a more efficient modern system that helps generate the political clout people will need on the battlefield. We have systemic problems and no they’re not all going to go away with better software. But we need catalysts that motivate people, win hearts, and pierce through the apathetic menagerie.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by supernovae on Thursday December 02, 2021 @05:40PM (#29423832)
Today there was a crypto hack that cost over 110 million because the website's cloudflare key was hacked/leaked apparently.

With 0 regulation and no recourse built into crypto, one poor soul lost 50.8 million in 900 bitcoins.

You're not going to replace people problems with tech. Period.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by dcow on Thursday December 02, 2021 @11:06PM (#29426510)
Right, so wouldn't it be nice if they were using an L2 sub-chain (a bank) that rolled up transactions so that this transaction could have been flagged and rejected. The need for these intermediaries to help the general public not get fucked is clear. The existing tech just kinda sucks. There's a world where the root chain is objective and transparent and distributed but where for most any practical application people interface with the chain at layer 2 and subject to any sort of social restraints and regulations they want to put in place.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by knownjorbist on Friday December 03, 2021 @12:31AM (#29426929)
For tall the clamoring about the issues with Big Tech or Big Government, some HNers seem all too willing to sign over essentially everything important just because it's more convenient when those powers have a backdoor to right wrongs.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by walterbell on Thursday December 02, 2021 @05:57PM (#29424027)
> You're not going to replace people problems with tech. Period.

Sadly, there will always be people who benefit from misattribution of a people problem to tech.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by __MatrixMan__ on Friday December 03, 2021 @06:24PM (#29436925)
Never say never. Whatever human problems remain after there are no more humans will probably become tech problems.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by arcticbull on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:01PM (#29424083)
Folks very quickly forget that regulations are written in blood.

You know what other kinds of regulations are onerous? Everything aviation related. Every corner of aviation. And yet we're not clamoring to deregulate aviation because the consequences are so clear and self-evident.

Regulations are generally there for a reason. If they aren't, they need to be amended, we don't need to make our own money, except for blackjack and hookers.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by scoofy on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:12PM (#29424252)
These people likely do not know of the lives destroyed by the wildcat banking era of the mid-1800's in the United States, which is what DeFi seems to become.

People don't think of the failing power of international sanctions.

The consequences of a fully de-regulated financial system will likely lead to more armed conflicts. That said, I agree that the political system is broken, but that's a problem of democracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat_banking

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by Karrot_Kream on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:21PM (#29424369)
The historical consensus behind this idea is not there. Here's [1] a good example of some scholarly dissent. I'm pretty sure the truth is more complicated than advocates of the "Wildcat Banks evil" idea keep parroting.

[1]: https://www.alt-m.org/2021/07/06/the-fable-of-the-cats/

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by Karrot_Kream on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:19PM (#29424335)
Not all regulations are written in blood, and not all regulations have their intended effect.

Aviation is a great example of this. Yes aviation in most of the developed world continues to be extremely safe and the regulations are largely written in blood, off the backs of many failed aviation experiments. But regulations _are_ stifling aircraft design and the FAA is trying to desperately figure out how to not calcify the industry without endangering people. Anything but your largest passenger movers are all either from the 1960s or just reruns of these '60s designs. Despite huge advances in sensor fidelity, reliability, and electronics process changes, the cost to certify a new aircraft design is so high that most aircraft makers don't bother and just coast on old designs that have already been approved and are mostly just grandfathered in designs. It's taking decades for leaded aviation fuel to be phased out because of the difficulty in iterating on engine designs due to above regulations. We could have been much farther along in aircraft energy efficiency, maybe even electrification, if these regulations weren't as onerous. (One could even make a case, though probably unsubstantiated, that had regulations not had this impact that aviation would be cleaner and would lead to lower pollution-based mortality, so a regulation that's _ensuring_ blood.) Experimental aviation and sport aviation regulations in the US are a direct response to this slowdown in innovation and I hope they pave the way for more lightweight regulatory out-valves in aviation.

Ham radio is another great example of a medium that is dying due to regulations. There's large restrictions on digital modes and encryption on multiple ham bands. Because of the internet then, Ham doesn't really offer anyone anything that they can't do on the internet, so most people these days just don't care. The regulations themselves are in place to make sure the spectrum allocated to amateurs isn't abused; allow encryption and commercial vendors will use Ham bands for their own private operations, and allowing too many digital modes could (but doesn't necessarily) increase the noise floor. That doesn't mean that regulation doesn't have a strangling effect on the medium as a whole.

It's important to remember that as technology improves, regulations may have to be rethought. I'm fully onboard with the idea that regulations need to work hand-in-hand with the market to produce desirable outcomes, but to deify regulations like this is much too coarse a filter for a complicated, nuanced issue like finance. It provides a nice fight with clearly delineated sides when you pit "regulation good" people against "regulation bad" people, but the truth is that regulations are complicated and IMO should be reevaluated in the face of change.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by preseinger on Friday December 03, 2021 @03:38PM (#29435066)
Rethought and improved, yes. Abandoned as fundamentally broken, no.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by Karrot_Kream on Friday December 03, 2021 @08:52PM (#29437918)
Correct that was the whole point of my post. Regulations need to be constantly rethought. The positions of "regulation good" or "regulation bad" are just too simple to be practical.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by secabeen on Thursday December 02, 2021 @05:18PM (#29423535)
I agree with a lot of this. A lot of techies are used to software and customer environments where vendors and customers work together for shared success. Finance is not that sort of space. Much of it is fundamentally zero-sum and adversarial. It needs a different style of oversight than SAAS.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by indigochill on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:25PM (#29421994)
> Lastly, anyone who would overturn the status quo must provide the people with an alternative that's at least as good

Depends what "good" means. Something interesting about disruption is it often starts out worse than the incumbent in every way except one key one which people see value in. The incumbent then doesn't see it as a threat because it's so much worse, until a critical mass of users who value the one better thing builds up and the incumbent is disrupted.

I'm a firm believer disruption of big tech will work that way. PeerTube is worse than YouTube in many ways, except that it's federated. Mastodon is harder to use than Twitter for the typical user. I believe in both of them because I believe the one thing they inarguably do better (putting power back in the hands of the people through federation) is sufficiently significant, especially as faith continues to erode in the status quo gatekeepers.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by __MatrixMan__ on Friday December 03, 2021 @10:35AM (#29431171)
Oh yeah, it's not that the new kids on the block need to be better than the old guard on all dimensions, but if we're really going to switch (rather than just having the disruptors as the occasional mistress), the switch has to be worth it. This is why I don't worry that crypto is going to release some kind of monster that can't be put back in its cage.

To value something is a choice. People are going to chose to value whichever network/token/whatever is actually worth switching to.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by r00fus on Thursday December 02, 2021 @02:49PM (#29421491)
> the societal ills that defi is trying to solve were caused by software in the first place (e.g. internet advertising as a democracy-eroder).

How in the world is DeFi supposed to help this? From my POV DeFi makes it worse (advertising funding can now be untraceable/unauditable).

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by __MatrixMan__ on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:54PM (#29422394)
If the entire platform (gmail, etc) is funded by ads, then removing the ads destroys the platform. In that space, advertising is a necessary evil, and the best we can do it try to make it less onerous.

But if you're supporting your platform by any other means, you can just go without ads entirely. And DeFi is all about finding ways to support things that you like without giving untrustworthy middle men like Google or a bank custody over it.

When a server gives you something other than what you asked it for with the aim of altering your behavior, that's called malware. We tolerate it in the form of ads because there aren't good alternatives available. If DeFi can fund an alternative, internet advertising can go die in a fire.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by colonelxc on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:16PM (#29422719)
Advertising clearly wont "go die in a fire", no matter how frictionless the payments are. There was a conversation on hacker news just a few days ago about 'smart' TVs all getting ads, spying on the user, etc.

This is an example where people do have a way to pay for TVs (no need for microtransactions, TVs cost hundreds of dollars already!). But the TV makers have decided they can make more money by adding Ads, so why would they not?

This happened with cable TV too. You pay for the TV already, as a subscription even, why do you also get Ads? Because the cable company gets more money.

Can companies live while just charging for their services? absolutely. Will a lot of companies try to add additional revenue flows anyways? Also yes. In theory a company could compete on a 'no ads' platform. In practice, industry after industry realizes that they can just make more money at the turn of a switch. DeFi doesn't fix that. The advertisers are still going to come calling with their checkbooks.

I grant that DeFi does have some potential for micropayments that are hard with traditional finance. That could help make some blogs and small things ad free. But my point is that making payments has not at all stopped ads from invading every other industry. TV ads are not because your purchase had too much finance overhead. The advertisers will still be there, checkbook in hand.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by __MatrixMan__ on Thursday December 02, 2021 @05:54PM (#29423996)
Frictionless payments are a relatively small part of it. The bigger part is figuring out who needs to be paid for what.

Consider gitcoin, for instance. Yeah, it processes payments, but more importantly it tracks developer reputation, user donations, and facilitates aggregate decision making (re: voting on how to spend the money).

Are you saying that eventually, the users will vote to have ads included in their open source software? I think not. It's only when somebody is able to exploit a privileged position as owner-of-the-medium that you get greed-driven service degradation like that. But we're learning how to build ownerless mediums. Whatever problems they have, I don't think they'll be the same-old middleman problems that we're used to.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by Ntrails on Thursday December 02, 2021 @05:10PM (#29423461)
>This happened with cable TV too. You pay for the TV already, as a subscription even, why do you also get Ads?

Drives me batshit that amazon does this on Prime. Play the fucking film you bastards

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by __MatrixMan__ on Thursday December 02, 2021 @05:55PM (#29424002)
Too bad we can't just fork a copy without ads and use that instead.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by acdha on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:24PM (#29424396)
The reason you can't fork it is because the copyright owner wants to maintain control. That means that the content will never be on a blockchain even if we see the 8+ orders of magnitude efficiency improvements which would be needed to do so and when you've built the systems which would be necessary to hold and authorize access you don't get anything except expense and support burden from a blockchain.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by __MatrixMan__ on Thursday December 02, 2021 @07:42PM (#29425163)
Oh, my point was that we can and already have (ok, a DHT is not a blockchain, but it's the same sort of deal). I pay for Prime for the shipping, so I could stream it, but I still torrent the content because it's just more convenient to have the file.

The only thing that DeFi changes about this scenario is that it's going to get easier for me to pay the people who make the content available in the format that I prefer. When it's sufficiently mature, that'll mean paying the artists as well. It's just a shame that we're not there yet.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by ipaddr on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:19PM (#29421900)
Before internet advertising everyone was concerned with newspapers being all ads, subway ads, billboards, naming stadiums, ads on buses, flyers being put everywhere, mail advertising plus everything you see on tv.

Those things still exist. Focusing only on digital advertising when ads are being pushed everywhere is missing the point.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by UncleMeat on Thursday December 02, 2021 @02:24PM (#29421140)
How would decentralized finance affect the advertising driven business model of web applications?
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by fragmede on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:20PM (#29421923)
Micropayments have been suggested since Internet was young, but now that's available on top of the right cryptocurrent (eg SOL). Whether that's actually a model people want (vs saying they want) remains to be seen, but Substack seems to be doing well enough for their writers. 3 cents from each of 100,000 likes on Twitter/Insta/tt starts to add up for those with a large enough following to make several of those a month. If the transaction costs are close enough to nil to make that worthwhile for everyone involved, that's a different web than we've grown up with, with 30-cent per-transaction fees being the industry standard for credit cards.

If Web3 becomes popular, it frees the online tip jar from a particular platform (eg Patreon) and decentralizes it so anyone can set it up for themselves, with far lower network effects required.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by UncleMeat on Friday December 03, 2021 @08:02AM (#29429501)
We've already had actually nil transaction costs for micropayments to eliminate ads offered by Google and... nobody used it. If advertising is driving facebook/twitter/youtube/etc to prioritize content that angers people then micropayments to support some small blogger isn't what is needed. Instead, what is needed is for facebook/twitter/youtube etc to operate on micropayments.

But... advertising isn't why these services trend towards angering content. Engagement is why. Whether you are paying with ad views or micropayments, if services want you to keep engaged then they will be incentivized to promote this kind of content. And since things like youtube premium (or whatever it is currently called) exist today and per-view payment systems have been set up by Google in the past (and already died), I don't think that funding these websites with BTC donations or whatever would change a thing.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by DenseComet on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:14PM (#29422663)
Micropayments are an interesting topic. I don't want to pay 5 cents per article I read, I'd much rather pay $10 a month for unlimited articles, even if I end up paying more than I would with the first scheme just because with the first one, I make a decision to spend money with every click. I know there are projects trying to streamline this, but it really should be as close to the UX of the latter as possible, pay a set amount and never think about how many things I can read.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by shebek on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:27PM (#29422872)
I though the point of personal computing was to make it easy to think, not to make it unnecessary?

If you think the firehose of self-referential click-bait needs to be made even more addictive, I'm really not sure what Web3 can offer.

OTOH, reintroducing the friction of having to decide whether the next click is worth your time and attention (i.e. money) is where it's at.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by int_19h on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:39PM (#29423045)
I've been using Blendle for a long time now, and one interesting thing that I've noticed is that it doesn't make me think hard about the decision to spend money every time I read some article, even though that's technically what it is.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by acdha on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:21PM (#29424378)
How many people even say they want micropayments? It seems like a relatively niche position even in my circles — most people seem relatively happy with the idea that their monthly costs are fixed and they don't need to think about how much it'll cost to open a link.

The proposed web3 model seems far more likely to be like those abusive micro-payment games with constant prompts to pay for something, with a page's worth of content moved behind successive paywalls since publishers aren't going to switch to a system which pays even less and you'd need to ask permission before charging someone.

This also adds problems with people who don't have money or aren't allowed to spend it (children, elderly, etc.) or the same scandals when those people are taken advantage of, not to mention the privacy impacts of effectively creating a super-cookie which can be used to track people all over the web.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by entropicdrifter on Thursday December 02, 2021 @02:36PM (#29421308)
Perhaps even more relevantly, how would any sort of decentralization help when the issue is an excessively unregulated market simply moving to the logical conclusion of its evolution?
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by yao420 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @02:45PM (#29421438)
I quite liked the coinhive approach of having the user run a blockchain workload as an alternative to ads. The project and economics didn’t work out for them but it was an interesting approach.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by UncleMeat on Friday December 03, 2021 @08:03AM (#29429519)
But that doesn't change a thing. Engagement is still the key metric for a service in this world. And that leads to the same problems.