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Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by 51Cards on Monday August 29, 2011 @03:54PM (#2938604)
Yes but people don't WANT to learn things like this. My mother doesn't want to remember what mouse button to click or that CTRL or ALT is a modifier on this command.

I would argue that THIS is what made Apple's OS hang on all those years it was in the severe minority. There is a segment of the population that wants only one mouse button to click, not 3, not 3 plus CTRL or ALT or etc. Apple did end up having to rely heavily on their option key to extend functionality but at its root the UI was designed so that the average user could do things in a simple, straightforward way. MS sees visually exposing commands to the user as their way to do it and while I may not entirely agree, I don't think it's without merit. My kudos to them for also letting me as a "power user" collapse the "newbie visual noise" off my screen and drop what I want on a custom quick access bar.

Remember: don't let your status as a power user cloud your view of how your grandmother might want to use her computer. There are FAR more 'grandmother' grade users than there are us.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by dhimes on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:04PM (#2938659)
Then why are the ipad and iphone taking off? It's really hard to learn to do things on those devices. It's cumbersome to turn off wifi and bluetooth to save battery. The control location makes no sense in the settings menu (to my mind, anyway).

I was a HUGE Apple fan for the early Macs. I totally get what you are saying. But we LOST in the workplace. It was just too slow for the other folks in the office to use (of course, the real death blow was having only a graphics mode to the display so the typing was dreadfully slow-- and the secretaries wouldn't use them- but that's another story).

But I get your point. That's why I phrased my response as I did. I have never done UI/UX testing- maybe the parent has and was sharing his insight.

But if we are all just speculating, I've got to throw out a shout for the other point of view. Yes, too many (how many is too many? I don't know) and it gets to be like using VIM. But two buttons? Seems like it should be ok.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by 51Cards on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:18PM (#2938728)
I understand what you're saying, and despite the content of my above post I've never been an Apple guy, always a Windows one. Every time I went over to the Apple OS I felt I had one hand tied behind my back by lack of options. I also try to keep in mind that I'm not typical. I started on "PCs" in 1981 and have grown with them, this all comes naturally. So when I judge a UI I literally stick my Mom on it... she's 68. I have also had the good fortune to work with a lot of 'artistic types' over the years as well, and in turn I watched how they use a UI. In my experience they just don't use much more than what is presented before them option wise.

Trust me, I agree that this new ribbon is very cluttered and contains too much visual noise, but in turn I don't mind exposing things visually to the end user. I hate MS Office with the ribbon, but I deal with people all the time who love it. Just let me turn it off :)

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by nkassis on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:52PM (#2938919)
". I also try to keep in mind that I'm not typical. ... So when I judge a UI I literally stick my Mom on it... she's 68"

Well she no more typical a computer user than you are I would think. I like to see a curve of typical computer users age distribution (but I understand it would be a little skewed if it's hard for the older generations to use computers).

I feel that ribbon is designed for a select group of new users who need that kind of help. And I hope it's easy to disable it. It's fine for Microsoft to use something like this as a default mode as long as power users are able to turn that stuff off.

This is what turns me off on OS X, there is often no way to do certain more advanced things. Or it's hidden so well it requires hours of searching on the web for what plist to modify.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by rolleiflex on Monday August 29, 2011 @10:49PM (#2939921)
The only thing I felt missing that I needed from OSX Finder is "Rename All". Do you have any other examples of this?
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by stephen_g on Monday August 29, 2011 @11:45PM (#2940028)
Cut and pasting files would be useful, but that's about all I miss.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by glhaynes on Monday August 29, 2011 @11:50PM (#2940043)
In Lion, after copying a file in Finder, you have available both Paste and Move.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by stephen_g on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @04:31AM (#2940588)
Thanks, I didn't notice that!

The shortcut for move is Cmd-Option-V, if anyone wants to know.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by jarin on Monday August 29, 2011 @10:36PM (#2939886)
What "advanced" things are you talking about that a regular user would need?
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by josch on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @06:34AM (#2940835)
I would love to be able to remove a (huge) file without going through the trash can.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by JadeNB on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @11:06AM (#2945834)
> I would love to be able to remove a (huge) file without going through the trash can.

1. Why?

2. `rm huge-file`

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by DougBTX on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:30PM (#2938795)
I felt I had one hand tied behind my back

That reminds me of the first few times I tried to learn vim.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by william42 on Monday August 29, 2011 @09:21PM (#2939734)
It reminds me of why I stopped using vim after switching to Dvorak.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by dasil003 on Monday August 29, 2011 @10:05PM (#2939822)
Shit that sounds painful.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by jbrechtel on Monday August 29, 2011 @06:34PM (#2939338)
Yea. For me it was like two hands... :)

Now though, any other editor that's not Vim or Emacs feels like that...

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by kiiski on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @02:56AM (#2940422)
"Just let me turn it off"

Just double click on one of the tabs.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by berne on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @04:57AM (#2940638)
Ctrl+F1?
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by varunsrin on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:25PM (#2938764)
It's cumbersome because you have to navigate through a bunch of menus - however, its easy because you have a finite, visible set of actions to look through those menus (tap, swipe, repeat) and a finite set of menus themselves.

In a desktop OS, you have a seemingly infinite set of modifiers (Ctrl, Alt, Double click, click, right click, Ctrl + Shift), which are not 'logical' operations like tapping and swiping - they must be learned and remembered.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by whatusername on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:47PM (#2938892)
Tap, swipe, draw apart, draw together, click home button, double click home button, click headset button, double click headset button, triple click headset button, Press external volume button, flick mute/screen-lock button, press lock button, hold lock button.

I'm sure there's a few more buried in there that I haven't discovered. (Like swipe backwards to delete an item from a list)

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by dhimes on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:58PM (#2938956)
Don't forget "tap and hold" on Safari. Found that one by accident.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by mitjak on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @01:18AM (#2940217)
Are you referring to tapping and holding images to save them to the library?
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by lloeki on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @04:12AM (#2940556)
It works on links too, allowing to open them in a new tab or copy the link.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by dhimes on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @09:34AM (#2941333)
I was referring to this. Didn't know about the other.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by zwaldowski on Monday August 29, 2011 @06:07PM (#2939268)
Except that those boil down to a couple of basic gestures: tap, pinch, swipe. The hardware buttons are irrelevant in this case. Oh, and swipe to delete? That's in the "manual" that comes with the device. It's smaller than a dollar, for god's sake.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by heelhook on Monday August 29, 2011 @08:34PM (#2939617)
Wonder how many iPhone users have read their user manual, I sure threw out the manual on day 1.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by bane on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:38PM (#2938842)
which are not 'logical' operations like tapping and swiping - they must be learned and remembered.

And now even those are getting out of control:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/gestures.html

Pretty soon I'm going to run out of fingers, and these certainly aren't easily discoverable.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by ugh on Monday August 29, 2011 @09:48PM (#2939787)
Yeah, because those gestures are more akin to keyboard shortcuts, i.e. something for power users. OS X is perfectly usable without complicated gestures. Two-finger scrolling is the most complicated thing an average user has to learn.

This same pattern continues on iOS devices. They don't ever use complicated gestures, certainly not as the only way to accomplish something. The most complicated gesture you need is pinching.

The new iOS 5 has gestures to switch apps and get home, but those are really like keyboard shortcuts since the home button is still there and offers a simpler alternative.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by gurkendoktor on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @05:04AM (#2940651)
There is still a problem when you accidentally trigger gestures. All my friends are scared to touch my Mac because they'd trigger hot corners all the time. With 10.7, you can easily trigger gestures even on default settings. I am worried the iOS5 gestures will have the same problem.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by shabble on Monday August 29, 2011 @08:56PM (#2939669)
I'm not sure if it's just me, but the 'pinch with 3 fingers and thumb' gesture seems to be practically impossible on the older macbooks with a separate pad & button - there just isn't the space.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by irq on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @12:42AM (#2940145)
That's completely okay because those older touchpads don't support gestures beyond two-finger-scroll anyway.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by shabble on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @12:28PM (#2942117)
No, it supports both 3 finger swipe (fwd/back in browsers), and 4 finger swipe (change Space), as well as, iirc 3 finger touch & click (although I haven't got this working since I installed Lion)
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by dhimes on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:39PM (#2938848)
its easy because you have a finite,....

Easy? Maybe for some. I bet the same people who have to be told to right-click also have to be told how to work their bluetooth/wifi connection (and never bother to turn it off to save battery).

But I'll grant you this point if s/easy/possible/

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by serge2k on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:16PM (#2938714)
Probably because people think it looks fun and are wiling to put in the few minutes it takes to not a be completely useless with the device.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by bmelton on Monday August 29, 2011 @05:25PM (#2939092)
I don't know why you got downvoted, and I upvoted to try and offset, but ignoring that...

I think that you overstate the importance of turning off wifi and bluetooth. Those are power user options, for sure. When you're trying to conserve battery power, you're trying to streamline how you use the device, which to me, smacks of 'power user'.

The flipside to that argument is that it is ridiculously easy to browse a web site, check your email and play Words with Friends and Angry Birds. These are the things that the majority of people care about... not whether or not a given physical interface is active or not.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by dhimes on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @09:33AM (#2941332)
I agree with you- that example may not fit everybody's problem. When I switched from a simple phone to a smart phone it was important to me, but now I don't bother (never too far from a charger).

And you are right, of course, in that ios allows most people to do the things they most care about very easily-- that's probably the takeaway. If you do that, then, apparently even if the other stuff is hard, people will probably figure out how to do it when they need it. Somehow.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by kyleslattery on Monday August 29, 2011 @07:55PM (#2939530)
Yes, absolutely. There is almost no reason to touch wifi and bluetooth settings on iOS devices. I have wifi enabled all the time, and battery life is still excellent.

Android devices on the other hand, need constant fiddling. My Droid would barely last a day with everything turned off, and with wifi, etc. turned on, it would die after only about 6 hours.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by foxylad on Monday August 29, 2011 @08:52PM (#2939659)
I'd hazard a guess your Android experience was a year or two ago. My Nexus 1 lasted barely a day when it arrived, but now lasts 48 hours on Gingerbread (2.3) with everything (including wifi, bluetooth and GPS) on.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by jrockway on Monday August 29, 2011 @11:15PM (#2939964)
Actually, it's probably the mobile network that's killing you. I get about a day of battery life with everyone on, and about a day of battery life with wifi and bluetooth off. But when I turn the cell phone radio off, suddenly my battery life increases to nearly a week. (I found this out by accident. I went to Sweden where my phone doesn't work, so I turned off everything except Wifi. A few days without charging later, I still had about 60% battery!)
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by aquark on Monday August 29, 2011 @10:22PM (#2939858)
Getting on a plane would be a fairly common use case, and independent of the 'power' level of the user.

Disclaimer: I don't own an iOS device, so don't know how intuitive it might or might not be.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by rolleiflex on Monday August 29, 2011 @10:51PM (#2939926)
Well, for plane use, it has "Airplane Mode" as the first option of the Settings app, so at least for that it's covered.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by jrockway on Monday August 29, 2011 @11:17PM (#2939968)
But airplanes have wifi now, so you can still want the cell radio off and have the wifi on. Yup, it's complicated. The world is a complicated place.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by cellularmitosis on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @02:52AM (#2940416)
That misses the point of "airplane mode". Airplane mode is for use during take off and landing. Ie, you'd need to turn wifi off too.

The only reason to turn off the cell radio but not the wifi radio is to conserve battery, which again puts you well outside the use case of the typical apple user.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by jsight on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @08:44AM (#2941161)
In the US, airlines require that electronic devices be turned completely off during takeoff and landing.

In my experience, this is rarely enforced.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by jrockway on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @08:26AM (#2941103)
No. For takeoff and landing, no power should be applied to any of the electronics. You have to turn the phone off.

(In fact, I just got off a plane, and the announcement is "electronic devices must be off, not in airplane mode. that's for after we're in the air.")

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by ThomPete on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:30PM (#2938798)
They are taking off because they are touch devices and not mouse devices.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by technoslut on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:44PM (#2938869)
I believe that it's only part of it. Another part is the lack of a filesystem. Many, if not most users, just don't like it or understand it. Though there are functions that are seriously lacking in iOS, I can't help but think that they're much closer to what is needed than MS.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by ThomPete on Monday August 29, 2011 @06:13PM (#2939287)
It's only part of it but the primary reason.

The actual removal of abstraction (mouse) have made it much easier to use it. This is why my son at 2 can use the ipad and he can't use the mouse and keyboard for the desktop and laptops.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by technoslut on Monday August 29, 2011 @07:25PM (#2939456)
I agree but what would happen if your son had to navigate Windows Explorer on a touchscreen? He may never have to but if older users are experiencing similar difficulties with the filesystem, little can be done with the command bar to completely fix this issue.

I have no doubt that this UI, though cluttered, will help users out but I question whether this is ultimately the best solution.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by sunchild on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:09PM (#2938683)
This doesn't explain the "invert selection" button. I'm pretty sure that one is indefensible.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by varunsrin on Monday August 29, 2011 @04:20PM (#2938738)
Yeah, while I think that select all & select none are pretty important ribbon items (most people never learn CTRL+A or Shift+Clicking), select inversion feels like a power user option to me.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by StavrosK on Monday August 29, 2011 @06:48PM (#2939379)
"Delete all files except this one."
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by angusgr on Monday August 29, 2011 @09:08PM (#2939709)
I think the argument is less "noone but power users would need this" and more "only power users will know how to apply 'Invert Selection' to get the behaviour they want".

ie there's an inductive leap between "I want to delete all files except this one" and "I can select that one file and then invert selection before deleting". At minimum it requires you to know what "invert selection" means. Ordinary users may take a different, more fiddly, path.

I don't know if that's the case here. My intuition says it is. However, in my optimistic heart I hope Microsoft did a bunch of usability testing and determined that ordinary users do grasp an "invert selection" concept more often than not.

That's how design for mass-use user interfaces works, right? By evidence-driven testing, not by what the programmer/designer thinks makes sense? Clings to idealistic belief.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by deselection on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @12:58AM (#2944392)
Select all, then deselect (ctrl-click) the one item you want to exclude. That's the exact same amount of work, just with the inversion step at the beginning instead of the end.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by richardw on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @02:35AM (#2940375)
People who don't know about menus shouldn't really be mass-deleting things yet. Alternatively, add a button for "Help! -The Computer lost all my stuff".
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by waitwhat on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @12:23PM (#2942090)
That button is called the "Recycle Bin". I believe it has been on the default desktop since at least Windows 95.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by richardw on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @02:44PM (#2942683)
A brief Google search confirms that "lost my files" wasn't solved in 1995. I'm pretty sure those aren't all Mac users. Even if 90% are due to other issues, there are many people who would like their data back. I believe many are due to the ease with which a user can delete files compared to the difficulty they experience when restoring them.

The dangerous button is much easier to find than the fix-it button. One is right there, with your files. The other is someplace else, related by metaphor alone. Once you have selected the recycle bin you then have to search through your very long deleted file list, select the file you want, select another button to restore it (which appears in the same place as a different button existed before selecting the file), and then navigate back to the place you were expecting the file to be. We're talking about users who can't figure out a menu, but they can perform this multi-step task. I can easily see a new computer user screwing this up.

Next time you look at the context menu of a removable drive, see that "Format" is right there with the eject menu item. One should be used every time you use the drive, the other very rarely and only when you're sure. The latter should be removed to a sub-menu under "advanced", or similar.

Myself, I'd make it harder to delete things and a lot easier to find them again.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by alextingle on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @02:55PM (#2947004)
Surely Apple's "Time Machine" achieves that? The UI is bizarre and overly flashy, but it's convenient and gets the job done.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by tdfx on Monday August 29, 2011 @05:50PM (#2939197)
If there was ever an option to be hidden deep within the confines of a user-inaccessible context menu, "invert selection" is definitely it.
Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by doublesprout on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @02:49AM (#2944597)
It's not immediately obvious from the label what the button does, but it is from experimentation. And unlike the multistep 'cut' or 'paste' buttons or 'move to' (which pops up a dialog, I think?), the discovery process for a user is one click.

Or maybe two. One to go from selected file to all other files, and another click to get back.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by yason on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @02:00PM (#2942502)
I've often wondered why not pop up the context menu with the left mouse button, then. It's what most people seem to use most. How many times you actually have to select a file, except to context-click on it?

Selection only comes handy when you will be doing something to several items at once. Thus, the selection function could be turned on via a menu item or a button: it's a totally different operating mode where you click on or drag around the items to select them.

Re:Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody by Jamiecon on Tuesday August 30, 2011 @07:22PM (#2943646)
Agreed. And not only does the ribbon increase accessibility for novice users, it also encourages advanced use by displaying keyboard shortcuts to a wide variety of functions in an intuitive way.