News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:30PM (#29382547)
Twitter and other social media are probably the biggest problem of our time.

By providing simple rules of information flow: small amount of content, retweet, followers) and rewards (likes), they've created the most efficient engines for finding and spreading novelty at the expense of everything else.

There are no incentives to improve accuracy, increase thoughtfulness, paint nuance. Fact checking gets lost in the wind.

The environment is essentially one designed for brain viruses, where whether you click RT (after thinking around 5 seconds about it) determines the Rt. The most superficially convincing, novel looking and emotion inducing content wins. You can get your misinformation in two flavors: deliberate disinformation by grifters, or accidental misinformation, sometimes by real experts who (like everyone else) make a sensational mistake that gets super amplified.

The worst bit is that social media is becoming the primary source of news for most people today. The results have been nothing short of catastrophic.

The new CEO has quite a bit of work in front of them.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6380/1146

Re:I resigned from Twitter by dragontamer on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:59PM (#29382903)
https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2011647630/

William Randolph Hearst (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Randolph_Hearst) did all of this first in the early 1900s. (Along with his rival Pulitzer. But the image above is clearly in Hearst's image, a fact probably lost to the modern audience)

The "problems" you state are far older than Twitter, and its best to study history and the problem of "Yellow Journalism". Over 100 years ago, people were complaining about false-outrage that manipulates the American public.

The only thing that has changed is that the American public has _forgotten_ what it was like to live in a outrage-fueled society, and we have to relearn the lessons of the past now. We need laws and society to change and recognize that all this fake-outrage is damaging ourselves, our psyche, and ultimately, our society.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by aaroninsf on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:20PM (#29383203)
The class of problem and its origins are constant in the interaction between human nature and an open market.

The specific problems of today are utterly unlike anything older. The medium is overwhelmingly determinate of impact.

The simplistic version of this is: there are profound non-linearities introduced by lack of friction. "Superficial" differences in the role of feedback and tailored results which are noise in the case of print and broadcast media, are everything in contemporary social media.

Most particularly, the so-called "algorithm" problem is specific to contemporary social media; and it is imbedded in our society in ways that are unlike anything which has challenged it previously: as the citizen-facing sharp edge of surveillance capital, in which the origin and flow of "value" (i.e. consumer data) is all but entirely removed from public view and individual agency; and acts as a meta-filter, which is the sharp edge of social media serving increasingly as the sole mechanism whereby people receive media.

We live in a world in which what we read is ever more carefully targeted, deluded in the belief that we have agency in what we see and some defense about what it does not just to us, but to society as a whole.

Contemporary social media is stochastic mind control. And as said, it is currently performed almost entirely in service of ends very much at odds with the common good, in almost any dimension you choose to inspect.

Oh well. We had an OK run.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by dragontamer on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:22PM (#29383227)
> The specific problems of today are utterly unlike anything older. The medium is overwhelmingly determinate of impact.

The USA literally started a war on false pretenses and took over the Philippines as a result of Yellow Journalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Maine_(1889)

This included at least 15 years of harsh occupation, as the Philippine Katipunan (in the north) and Moros (the Muslims of the south) fought a guerilla war against their US occupiers, with roughly 200,000 dead from famines and war. I mean, USA occupied the Philippines until the 1940s (the seeds for Philippine independence were planted by the 20s, but WW2 severely delayed plans). But just because US Citizens have forgotten the story doesn't mean that this stuff didn't happen.

The Yellow Press has been a bane upon US society for over a century. There's letters from Ben Franklin about how he manipulated the press (ie: leaking false "scalping" stories about native Americans / British) to aid in the US Revolution. (See Henry Hamilton, a British Administrator who was widely believed to be a scalper, but proof never was offered on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hamilton_(colonial_admin...)

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This is literally who we are as a people. Easily manipulated, outraged filled citizens who individually seem to have difficulty doing any form of critical thinking. Then a few elites get a good idea about how to manipulate the masses: be they Benjamin Franklin, William Hearst, his rival Pulitzer, or today Zuckerberg or Jack Dorsey.

Its been like this for centuries, and it will continue to be like this long after you or I die.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:00PM (#29383733)
Or, this might actually be another important problem that humanity should find worthy of recognizing and finally solving.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by dragontamer on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:12PM (#29383872)
Both Pulitzer and Ben Franklin are national heroes for their ability to levy the masses and gain popular support.

Problem #1 is explaining to people that the outrage-filled Yellow press is a problem in the first place. Too many people yell "free speech" and "freedom", and point out these heroes of the past.

People don't even think this is a problem. So it won't get solved. If you can convince enough people that maybe we should do something about this, feel free to do so.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:26PM (#29384046)
Lots of things will need to happen, I agree.

One thing that is happening is that social media is escalating the problem so much that its becoming visible to everyone, which in turn will increase the demand to do something about information quality (including defining what it is or is not). This seems to be already in progress.

Another thing I'm hoping for is that we can get NLU that is advanced enough to detect and elevate great quality material (both from research but also from educational perspective) that can successfully counteract "yellow journalism" and misinformation. We could combine this with NLU that can detect common techniques that take advantage of flaws in our reasoning abilities.

I'm actually optimistic this may be possible now. I also suspect it won't be necessary to go against free speach to achieve this.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by dragontamer on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:29PM (#29384091)
> I also suspect it won't be necessary to go against free speach to achieve this.

We only need to look at the misinformation from 10 years ago to see how quickly "free speech" comes into play as a counter-argument.

"Obama is a Muslim" and "Obama was born in Kenya" are two pieces of misinformation. Explain what methodologies you'd do to stop these pieces of misinformation from spreading on Facebook, Twitter... or hell... Fox News / traditional media.

Any such restriction you think up with will immediately bring out the free-speech advocates. People want the "freedom" to spread these lies around for political gain.

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Its easier to use 10-year-old conspiracies because they're no longer "hot". I'm sure there are still people who believe in this misinformation today, but they're more riled up about current misinformation rather than past misinformation.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:42PM (#29384262)
> Explain what methodologies you'd do to stop these pieces of misinformation from spreading on Facebook, Twitter... or hell... Fox News / traditional media.

Explaining that these sources of information are not reliable, because they use techniques to manipulate public opinion. We have to discredit entire subsets of media that aren't willing to give up manipulative practices.

Saying that we can and should demand higher quality for our information, just as we demand high quality for other products. We make all kinds of (life) decision based on information.

Offering an alternative, better source of information, which is transparent, has a well defined methodology, can "show you the work" if you want to see it. One where you will know people put a lot of effort into producing high quality material and went to great length to avoid common pitfalls of human reasoning. A new kind of media to improve the quality of our lives by improving the quality of our information.

Free speach is totally fine to continue existing. Traditional media can also continue to exist. That doesn't mean we have to take it seriously - nobody bans tabloids either, but we don't put much into them.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by dragontamer on Monday November 29, 2021 @04:31PM (#29385546)
> Explaining that these sources of information are not reliable, because they use techniques to manipulate public opinion. We have to discredit entire subsets of media that aren't willing to give up manipulative practices.

Sure. I can believe that's a step in the right process. But have you ever tried to discredit Fox News for pushing the lie that "Obama is a Muslim" ?? Or "Obama was born in Kenya" ??

Even if you point out that a certain news publication does this, no one really seems to care in my experience.

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Look, people believe Obama was not born in the USA because they _want_ to believe that their political opponents are cheating at the process. And Fox News simply delivers to them what they want.

Cater to people's worst desires and worst beliefs... you know, those beliefs that no one else is willing to discuss... and you'll become a trustworthy friend of theirs.

Similarly: people want to be optimistic about COVID19. They want to believe in a cure (that isn't that cure that liberals are pushing). So now you have Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin. Give them the optimism they so desire, and they'll believe you.

People are right to be scared and afraid of COVID19. People are right to search for a cure and have optimism. But its when these media outlets feed on these fears and pushes misinformation that things get dangerous.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @06:43PM (#29386881)
Please, read the rest of my comment.

The idea isn't to focus on any individual bit of misinformation. Its to throw away the whole thing, conceptually, as a bad way of getting information, as a low quality source of it. It might have to include some left-leaning media as well, or most media in general as we know it today, because unfortunately most media today is manipulative instead of informative.

The hard bit is offering a good alternative, based on a decent set of principles, that will preserve its independence. Some principles might include:

- linking and detailed referencing to existing, primary sources

- grading the quality of information sources based on levels of evidence determined by experts

- showing the work i.e. using modern tech to allow the reader to expand on the whys and details if they want to (wiki style) without necessarily getting bogged down getting the gist of it (if they don't)

  - you should be able to get from a lightweight, easy-read, to-the-point news article with a video to a full blown code-available paper that is also a Jupyther notebook with the anonymized dataset included, if you click deep enough
- full transparency to the entire process with public versioning of drafts and detailed commentary / editorialization etc - for those that want to access it. Open source and open data journalism, science and science communication.

(I'll be honest, the above list is super rough WIP at the moment - some of those might turn out to be bad ideas)

The reason why people might care now is that they are actually dying or getting maimed because they were exposed to misinformation. Between special interests pushing their narratives and solo manipulative grifters that are banking on building an audience, its hard to tell who to trust.

With a system like this, I suspect it might actually be possible to remove taboos eventually. Taboos are only taboos because we fear their effects on mass misinformation, misinterpretation and other systemic (un)intended negative effects. If we can find a new way of thinking that gains wide acceptance and is immune to those flaws, then maybe we can open up taboo topics.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by dragontamer on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @12:34PM (#29394837)
> The idea isn't to focus on any individual bit of misinformation. Its to throw away the whole thing, conceptually, as a bad way of getting information, as a low quality source of it. It might have to include some left-leaning media as well, or most media in general as we know it today, because unfortunately most media today is manipulative instead of informative.

No. The important thing is to _GET OTHER PEOPLE_ to do this.

My mom, or my sister's father in law, will not trust what I say if it contradicts their news sources. So there's no feasible way I (or really, anyone else) can get them to throw away their bad news sources.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @01:39PM (#29395732)
There is, if you

- don't focus on what their news sources are saying but instead

- you focus on why the old way is bad in general (across both left and right news media).

Thats the new message. Not "your news sources are bad" but "the entire approach of most news media today is bad. here is this new media utilizing a new approach where anyone can do the work and is fully open source so harder to manipulate"

Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:59PM (#29383708)
Some the problems are old... and some are new.

The old press was broadcast-only and had to catter to the lowest common denominator. As a result, at least some people were immune.

The new "press" is crowdsourced and tailored just for you. Social media doesn't even have to do research on what works or what doesn't on who. Natural selection by means of retweeting does all the work. You can find misinformation of all levels of sophistication, all the way to incorrect scientific papers if thats your shtick. (It will mostly be based on reading abstract conclusions in those cases without checking quality of methodology, or on whatever the funding intrests of big companies are)

Re:I resigned from Twitter by dragontamer on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:15PM (#29383914)
> You can find misinformation of all levels of sophistication, all the way to incorrect scientific papers if thats your shtick.

This isn't new at all. "More doctors smoke Camel Cigarettes". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCMzjJjuxQI

And the Tobacco industry funded all types of scientific papers, that were published all over the place to demonstrate Tobacco's "health benefits".

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The only reason we can't find examples older than maybe the mid 1900s or so, was because doctors weren't even trusted until the 1900s. 1800s doctors were well recognized as quacks and had very little reputation among the American people. So there was no reason to use doctors as a propaganda point back then.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:28PM (#29384075)
Right, except now its not just pathological aspects of capitalism causing the problem - its democratized. Now everyone can misinterpret papers in novel an exciting ways that are likely to spread far and wide.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by brightball on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:35PM (#29382612)
Where it all went sideways was when mainstream news started showing tweets on air.

EDIT: I need to add clarification. I don't mean when breaking news gets onto mainstream channels. No question that happens.

What I mean is the use of a single tweet with maybe 1 or 2 likes here or there to reflect public sentiment on different issues. All any news station had to do was fish through the pile of tweets about any given topic to find something they wanted to show on air and then act as if it represented a large segment of people. I watched it happen over and over for years.

Twitter created the ability to engineer the perception of public sentiment already with bots, but when main stream news joined in things went downhill much, much faster.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by alpha_squared on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:50PM (#29382806)
Mainstream news used to have a near-monopoly on access to events and crime scenes. The advent of smartphones with ever-improving cameras gives the average citizen, who's there in the moment, first access. Twitter just happened to be the medium with lowest barrier to sharing that, but it would've happened regardless. As stations couldn't keep up with the "breaking" part of news, it just made sense (unfortunately) to adopt the share-what-others-say model and talk about that instead.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by brewdad on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:01PM (#29382928)
I don't think eyewitness video is the biggest problem. When @LGBrandon8534932 gets their tweets posted on the evening news and it's treated the same as a statement from Dr Fauci. THAT'S a problem.

Hyperbole. But not by much.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by alpha_squared on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:12PM (#29383076)
Once the floodgates have opened to allow social media statements to permeate mainstream news, there's no limiting which social media is acceptable and which isn't. Eventually, social media itself becomes the news. That feels like a natural progression to me, personally, despite how much I hate it.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by mmastrac on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:40PM (#29382683)
I agree. News stories about X "dragging" Y on Twitter were rock bottom.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by cletus on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:56PM (#29382881)
Another case of blaming a symptom rather than the cause.

The media began showing Tweets because Twitter had reached a sufficient audience size. The real problem is the audience size.

Stroustrup famously said [1]:

> There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses.

I'd paraphrase this about communication platforms (including social media, Reddit, forums, etc):

> There are only two kinds of communication platforms: the ones where people are reactionary, argumentative, tribal, incendiary, conflict-seeking, virtue-signaling and just downright mean and the others too small for that not to have happened yet.

[1]: https://www.stroustrup.com/quotes.html#:~:text=%22There%20ar....

Re:I resigned from Twitter by stcredzero on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:44PM (#29382730)
Perhaps things had started to slide sideways before that? I distinctly remember a period of time, I think nearly a decade back, when I'd constantly hear about something on NPR and think, "I saw that headline on reddit yesterday! Are they even trying!?"
Re:I resigned from Twitter by datavirtue on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:14PM (#29383109)
Everything of significance comes by way of open sources. It isn't odd for anyone to do a story that was reported in another source.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by stcredzero on Tuesday November 30, 2021 @04:21PM (#29397622)
If, at that time, NPR was aggregating information, that would be one thing. I really got the impression that they were mindlessly lifting headlines and story ideas.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by bonestamp2 on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:52PM (#29382827)
I think that's a symptom and not the root cause. The root cause was when we stopped paying for news with money and started paying for news with clicks. That changed how news was gathered, reported, and shared.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by sjg007 on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:44PM (#29382733)
Broadcasters love it when the news writes itself.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by criddell on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:48PM (#29382787)
Are they just giving audiences what they want?
Re:I resigned from Twitter by wonderwonder on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:49PM (#29382792)
I think they are a symptom, not the root. The root started before them with the advent of pay per click advertising. Everything else has spiraled from that. I truly believe that the massive divisiveness of the last 2 decades can be traced to this. Social media echo chambers, youtube rabbit holes, click baity headlines, all of it is because of pay per click advertising. The ML algorithms we have now have become so effective that the problem is only getting exponentially worse. Your news is fed to you with the sole purpose of making you click so they earn $.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by pmcp on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:04PM (#29382970)
As someone who started working at an ad agency during the online metrics boom, then went to a national news organisation to work as digital strategist, I tend to agree.

But I would pinpoint it to the inflated value of impressions. My experience (but i can not back this up) tells me that ad sellers tend to over estimate the impact of an impression, which makes the value chain completely inflated, and skews the business model. If ads were worth less (and, according to me, closer to the real value), less money would go round, and creating value for the end user would become more a necessity.

But I might be wrong, obvs.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by netizen-936824 on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:16PM (#29383144)
Don't basically all salespeople inflate the value of the products they sell?
Re:I resigned from Twitter by mattnewton on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:54PM (#29382855)
But I think calling it pay-for-click is a misnomer, that's just the latest version of a very old business model. Cable news, like Fox, has had the same outrage-fueled engagement metrics that predate the internet, and before them there were newspapers doing the same thing. I think the technology of social media is just creating small efficiencies in an existing business model preying on very old aspects of human nature.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by noahtallen on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:09PM (#29383034)
I think the difference is that cable news is hard to access for a lot of people. For example, you don’t have ML algorithms on cable boxes trying to suggest a show which will result in high engagement. It’s fairly siloed, in that you have to deliberately choose to watch cable news. (Though they definitely keep you hooked!) Social media really allows it to be much more pervasive.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by mattnewton on Monday November 29, 2021 @04:21PM (#29385454)
Annecdotally, Cable news seems to work just as effectively at confirming prior biases as social media among my relatives who don't have computers / smartphones, maybe even more effectively. I'm skeptical that the algorithms are so much better than people self sorting between news networks that it's a difference of kind rather than degree, and I think we give "the algorithms" way too much credit in general
Re:I resigned from Twitter by TheCondor on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:07PM (#29383015)
Was this an internet age thing? I mean 24hour news networks found out long before social media took off that they can eat a bigger piece of the pie and not spend money working on news by running opinion hacks. Just decide which echo chamber you want to pander to and then fill up your schedule with pundits. Their market share went up, their costs went down and no matter what happens or doesn't happen each day, they have a group of people that want to tune in. People like to hear their world view reaffirmed.

Silicon valley just optimized it and turned it in to a science.

I'm sure various social scientists and historians could link it other issues. Advertising and selling goods in and of itself doesn't really explain how people just fall in to utter bullshit beliefs, does it?

Re:I resigned from Twitter by wonderwonder on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:28PM (#29383291)
The internet is a little different as on tv they cant follow you from channel to channel recommending things for you to watch. Tv shows cost a good deal of money to produce so the range of offerings is limited. On the internet, algorithms track your every click even to the point of noticing that you paused on a headline but did not click it. They are able to build a profile on you that is likely more accurate than anything ever created before including your understanding of yourself. With this profile they also have an almost unlimited supply of videos, articles and social media posts to send your way that your profile says you will likely click on. Each time you click on something their profile is updated and improved. They are able to create a steady stream of offered media that cannot help but reinforce your views on the world as you are quite often not presented with much of an alternative. If you are not a technical person and you are only presented with news that supports your political ideology you may very well think that everyone else is getting the same feed. This would make them think that if you are getting the same news as them and still hold a different viewpoint then you are being willfully ignorant and choosing to be malicious. See the rise of the "liberalism is a disease" meme. For example if all the news you see says Biden is senile and a terrible person, why would you not believe it? In the same way in which someone on the left was presented with a very negative feed of Justice Brett Kavanaugh during his nomination process. A good example of how powerful the ML algorithms are now is NBA player Kyrie Irving and his trip down the youtube rabbit hole that convinced him the earth was flat. He also holds Anti-Vax ideas, which were most likely influenced by his internet browsing habits.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by game_the0ry on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:13PM (#29383099)
> Twitter and other social media are probably the biggest problem of our time.

No, social media is not the root problem - it showed us who we really are.

> The worst bit is that social media is becoming the primary source of news for most people today. The results have been nothing short of catastrophic.

There is good news - people are figuring out the effects of social media. Your post is one example - you see there are issues, you have "woken up." The "Social Dilemma" on netflix is another example, that deprogrammed a lot of people. Frances Haugen's testimony to congress, another. Slowly and surely, people will build "immunity" to "mind viruses." Humans fought this battle and won [1], but the war will go on as long as humans and media coexist.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

Re:I resigned from Twitter by cletus on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:48PM (#29382789)
The real problem here is people, not the platforms or the products. How do I know this? Because the problems have existed far longer than any of the platforms.

Maybe people here are too young to remember how toxic, argumentative, irrational and judgmental everything else was that came previously: forums, mailing lists, Usenet, you name it.

Sure products can influence user behaviour but they can't totally change it. And if none of them (as you assert) "improve accuracy, increase thoughtfulness, paint nuance" ask yourself why: is it because all the platform providers are wrong? Or simply that's what users want?

Personally I've never liked Twitter. Of all the platforms I find it dominated by people who like the sounds of their own voices. I've described it as a "write only" platform. Even calling it "social media" seems like a stretch as there are no relationships, just people you follow and a news feed.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by Dumblydorr on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:59PM (#29382913)
If humans are inherently violent, why hand them free guns? If they're inherently greedy, why hand them free credit cards? If humans are inherently toxic and disingenuous and biased, why hand them the free reach to thousands of gullible minds?

I'm in agreement humans are flawed, but why should we allow billionaires, who mostly want power and wealth, to decide how to referee our public discourse?

To me, these companies are run by humans and used by humans, so like drinking and driving, speed limits, personal safety, and all other kinds of laws: we need guardrails against bad actions.

We need some rudimentary policing, for as Hamilton stated: "if men were angels, no government would be necessary"

Re:I resigned from Twitter by tcoff91 on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:01PM (#29382924)
I'm sure people were saying the same things about the printing press as people are saying about social media. People were printing pamphlets in the 1800s that were just as crazy as any of the misinformation we see online today.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by datavirtue on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:23PM (#29383240)
I have been on a lot of forums where it was generally amicable, informative, and unarguably valuable. Sure, there was toxicity but was usually just enough to be comic relief and could be ignored. However, a lot of dumbshits were still carrying around flip phones and did little else than play hunting or monster truck games on a PC. Now they have a frictionless platform from where they can interject thier wisdom into just about any forum without having anything invested.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by mtoddsmith on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:12PM (#29383876)
The difference with the new platforms is their ability to push content to users. And that content can be driven by bad actors.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:12PM (#29383877)
We should have (software) systems that amplify our strengths and help us deal with our flaws, not the other way around.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by c7DJTLrn on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:38PM (#29382654)
I wonder how much your mind would have to distort reality for you to believe you're providing the world with a good service when you're at the helm of Twitter or Facebook.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by rtkwe on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:47PM (#29382772)
There's a fair amount of motivation to find a reason to believe it's a "the good out weighs the bad" situation. For starters they're making incredible amounts of money and then there's the desire to not think you're doing something bad.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by Nasrudith on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:59PM (#29382904)
You just need to respect human agency instead of thinking you inherently know better than the world how to use it. It is a sentiment which is very out of current zeitgeist with its "boy who cried dystopia" bent.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by TheOtherHobbes on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:10PM (#29383046)
How do gigantic globe-spanning ad machines "respect human agency"?
Re:I resigned from Twitter by jabedude on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:16PM (#29383139)
I can see the argument. Nothing forces an individual to click on or engage with an advertisement
Re:I resigned from Twitter by yjftsjthsd-h on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:09PM (#29383041)
I expect it's quite easy; you believe that you're connecting people and that this is a good thing, and then you ignore the undesirable second-order effects of how you're doing it.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by rich_sasha on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:50PM (#29382809)
Is the is very different to what newspapers were when they first appeared?

Of course they never achieved the same technological pace. Also, nowadays, when you think of newspapers, you think mostly of quality publications, writing considered, contextualised pieces.

But even nowadays, there are plenty of crappy tabloids chasing ad revenue (clicks?), with no regard for information and only about the shock factor. And in the past it was much worse, since the whole cesspit of attention-grabbing was contained in newspapers and pamphlets.

Tech changes, humans don’t.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by Dumblydorr on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:55PM (#29382859)
While I agree printed media is biased and is a medium for propaganda, it's hard to argue it's comparable in scale or effectiveness to social media.

1) in the Renaissance, literacy was much lower, books were scarce and expensive, and writing was often made in Latin, like the original bibles and Newton's Principia Mathematica. Therefore, print had MUCH less reach than social media.

2) the attentional cost of a book is vastly greater than a tweet. Tweets are designed to be simple and read in seconds; books are often complex and take weeks to digest.

3) due to 2, I feel Twitter's discourse evolves and devolves much, much faster into extremism and bullying and bad behaviors. It takes a long time for book disses to reach their target, not so for Twitter.

I could go on, but suffice to say, social media is an exponential notch above printed media in it's potential misuse and damage to society.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by hadlock on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:33PM (#29383357)
A lot of printed media was released in poorly bound booklets, without covers, it was roughly equivalent to a tweet or blog post today. The good ones got reprinted and/or compiled into an anthology, the bad ones were simply lost to time as kindling for the hearth.

Not as fast as a tweet, but low cost, sub-book media has existed as long as the printing press was around. The classic books we study today are the equivalent of the criterion collection dvd sets.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by wutbrodo on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:50PM (#29383589)
> Also, nowadays, when you think of newspapers, you think mostly of quality publications, writing considered, contextualised pieces.

This is a very unique perspective. It's one I don't share, and neither do the majority of Americans[1]. The economic and cultural forces shaping journalism make it so that it's vanishingly rare to find pieces that meet (my personal bar for) "considered, contextualized pieces". It's been a decade since the world of blogs/independent publishing has been an infinitely better source for that type of writing than traditional media has.

Naturally, independent publishing is also where you go to find the absolute worst of analysis and reporting, to a degree that traditional media would never stoop to. The core problem is that of discovery, finding the subset of high-quality sources in the acres of chaff that is the modern news environment.

It turns out that aggregators like Twitter are amazing for this, for those with the mental maturity and cognitive ability to use them with discipline. It's not very difficult to start with a trusted core of intellectually honest follows, then iteratively (and hyper-selectively) add high-quality accounts/author that you find through your existing follows. You have to be okay with a sparse feed to start, and you have to be disciplined enough to recognize perspectives that are high-quality even if you disagree with them, but it's an extremely straightforward path towards a much better media diet than the vast majority of people.

Note that this process doesn't disadvantage traditional media; it just fails to give it an undue advantage. Traditional publications and individual journalists within them can be treated like a source like any other, that can be compared to In practice, this is nominal only: in my experience, the incentives of the industry are such that 99% of them fall massively short of the basic quality and intellectual honesty bar. (Seriously, try it: start checking the sources and reading the papers cited by every article you read from eg the NYT and see how long you maintain confidence in modeling them as basically intelligent people telling you what's basically the truth).

[1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/355526/americans-trust-media-di...

Re:I resigned from Twitter by sAbakumoff on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:38PM (#29382651)
Yeah, feeling of novelty causes a dopamine spike, but shortly afterwards the level is back and we feel like they need more new stuff. Mindless purposeless scrolling may last hours and hours. Twitter is bad, but Tik Tok is the worst. Remove all this stuff from your phone and read HN instead. Here you at least should focus on sophisticated comments like yours!
Re:I resigned from Twitter by electrondood on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:48PM (#29382785)
TikTok is terrifying. It is designed to be nicotine for your attention span, achieving engagement at any cost. Now they've added keyboard shortcuts.

The effects of social media on our collective attention span legitimately scare me. Our attention spans are shrinking with each generation, and the effect has gone parabolic in the last 15 years. Look at old movies, and notice the longer length of cuts compared to movies today. Now look at the infinite feed on TikTok.

What happens when the minority of the population that actually does their civic duty of informed voting can no longer pay attention to important issues?

What happens when people can't think about any topic beyond a sound bite or meme?

What happens when no one has more than 1000ms of patience to question whether they're looking at a deepfake?

Climate change? Holding politicians accountable for corruption or abuses of power?

I think we need to take a good look at where we're headed.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by drjasonharrison on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:45PM (#29382747)
Please don't use dopamine to explain addictive/repetitive behaviors. It's like blaming your eyes for finding the button to click. It's more complex. https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/women-who-stray/20...
Re:I resigned from Twitter by sAbakumoff on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:03PM (#29382951)
OF COURSE it's more complex than this, the human's brain is a very sophisticated machine. But I just read a couple of "brain for dummies" books[1][2], so my knowledge is pretty limited.

[1] - "Behave" by Sapolsky [2] - The Willpower Instinct

From that I recall they explain that the reward system responds to feeling of novelty because it's good for survival, f.e. you can find food or water source in a new location or maybe notice a hostile animals there. So, it's a behaviour caused by evolution. Twitter, Facebook, etc. just exploited it. And they admitted it:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/09/facebook-...

Re:I resigned from Twitter by nprz on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:12PM (#29383086)
Have you read Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent, Public Opinion by Walter Lippman, or Propaganda by Edward Bernays? If so, I don't think you would come to the conclusion that the media landscape prior to social media was bastion of truth and honesty.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by datavirtue on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:15PM (#29383129)
Yeah, traditional media was/is a consent manufacturer. The elite decide among themselves the truth, and then repeat it over and over.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by mysecretaccount on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:15PM (#29383131)
Yeah, I cannot imagine how someone would say social media is the "biggest problem of our time" unless they were ignorant to the work you cited, and many other fundamental issues (profit motive turning the planet into a convection oven, for one).
Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:09PM (#29383846)
Yes. While that situation was bad, it was not nearly as bad as the completely out of control results we get from social media.

I actually think there is a great opportunity here to fix this problem as SM has made it painfully obvious and visible to everyone, while also democratizing the entire process. (Democratizing manipulation and outrage isn't necessarily the best thing in the world though, but we can at least start thinking what causes it and what can be done to improve things)

Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @03:30PM (#29384851)
For what its worth, its highly likely that this comment had artificial negative points added in the background for its sorting, after which it stopped its super quick gain in points (156 in 1-2 hours) and suddenly dropped to page two.

I wonder what the mods found objectionable. Its a general news event, so this kind of commentary seems relevant. Social media CEOs are facing this problem everywhere and they seem unable (or unwilling?) to fight it.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by ckastner on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:55PM (#29382860)
> By providing simple rules of information flow: small amount of content, retweet, followers) and rewards (likes), they've created the most efficient engines for finding and spreading novelty at the expense of everything else.

Those are indeed elementary factors, but I think that Twitter's effectiveness stems from how it enables tribal thinking and actively nourishes it with its algorithmic ranking.

It's one gigantic outrage machine, and few things are as addictive as outrage.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by downandout on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:37PM (#29383400)
Interesting take. I do think that social media is driving the selection of increasingly unfit political candidates worldwide, which is a big problem. In an environment where the objective is to share things that get the most “WTF” comments from those with whom you disagree and the most applause from those with whom you do agree, only the most extreme and/or inept candidates wind up getting attention and the resulting votes.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by intricatedetail on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:10PM (#29383053)
Isn't it how media in general work? Only difference is that almost anyone can publish and you don't have to wait for it to print and reach stores, subscribers... E.g. when the press publish something false you may get correction few issues later somewhere in small print, whereas on Twitter you actually can get a chance of seeing rebuttal in the thread. Most people only read headlines regardless of the medium.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by runjake on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:08PM (#29383023)
Well said.

But as CTO, the new CEO seems to have focused on increasing engagement and growing audiences. Unless that changes, expect the problem you describe to get bigger.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by dionian on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:32PM (#29382565)
What's worse, is it has ushered in a Technocracy, where unelected corporate interests now decide which political views are "misinformation" and, for example, may threaten "election integrity", which drugs doctors should prescribe, etc.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by zpeti on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:44PM (#29382722)
To be fair I think it’s more unofficial capture by those in power. There is a gun at this point at Facebook and Twitters head by super powerful people (including journalists) to get them to comply or else…

I think Silicon Valley made a major misjudgement thinking geeks with products with billions of people won’t be taken over by politicians with decades of power game experience. It’s not even a fair game. These are literally the biggest power players in the world, Zuckerberg and Dorsey didn’t stand a chance.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by randomsearch on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:14PM (#29383114)
It’s not novelty that is optimised for, it’s engagement, and engagement is usually directly correlated with enragement.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by lazyeye on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:48PM (#29382788)
Its the asbestos or thalidomide of our time..software is eating the world.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by captainmuon on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:08PM (#29383017)
No, gullible people, misinformation, polarisation has been there before social media. But in the old days, classic media used to keep a lid on it by mediating which positions could be heard publicly. We haven't learned yet as a society to ignore the unimportant noise.

I believe that free publishing, or many-to-many media, is crucial for the future of our society. If anything, it is still not easy enought to get ideas out there and discussed (unless you have enough reach).

To phrase it a bit provocatively, I believe radical democracy is a good thing, even if many of the plebs are stupid.

Re:I resigned from Twitter by Nasrudith on Monday November 29, 2021 @01:09PM (#29383044)
You do realize that there is a pandemic ongoing, right? While not good the moral panic about social media is downright absurd and lacks any sense of proportion.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @04:33PM (#29385557)
You do realize that social media is responsible for quite a few of the problems we have had during the pandemic?

People are dying because of social-media-amplified misinformation: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1460368038859919361.html

Re:I resigned from Twitter by jMyles on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:32PM (#29382573)
If feed-generating algorithms were dispassionate - amplifying liked content rather than massaging feeds for advertising and other behavior manipulation - then your assessment of the results as "brain viruses" might be more accurate. And the world might actually benefit from them.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by spion on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:39PM (#29382662)
The thing is, the "natural selection" of this network is decided by people on average spending 5 seconds of thought before getting outraged/scared/intrigued etc (also, whatever is that emotion that says "look world, I found something really clever that y'all have missed!") and clicking retweet. I find that incredibly unlikely to yield any great content whatsoever.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by akomtu on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:57PM (#29382886)
It's a clever trick. Short tweets with pictures skip the rational thinking part of the brain, for those tweets don't have anything to think about, and go straight to the emotional animalistic part of the brain. So twitter turns into a sort of colossus stadium where millions of apes screaming at each other. Usually, the stadium splits into a few big chunks where apes chant the same meme.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by manigandham on Monday November 29, 2021 @12:42PM (#29382700)
Advertising is placed into the feed, but it doesn't determine it. You still get what you like and engage with the most.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by jMyles on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:07PM (#29383813)
I'll believe claims of this sort when production feed generation algorithms are released under an open license.
Re:I resigned from Twitter by manigandham on Monday November 29, 2021 @02:38PM (#29384204)
What difference do you think the feed makes for slotting in ads every few stories?
Re:I resigned from Twitter by jMyles on Wednesday December 01, 2021 @11:09PM (#29412473)
I believe that the feeds are far more manipulated than this. Facebook got caught once intentionally manipulating feeds to attempt to produce negative mental states. Do you honestly think they just completely stopped? I think it's plausible that it's happening on a much larger scale than it was then.