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Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by hinting on Sunday August 28, 2011 @03:55PM (#2934766)
Article summary: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by georgemcbay on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:38PM (#2934893)
"Article summary: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

Wow, I think your comment is a perfect illustration of one of the author's points and the reason he had to speak up in the face of people going too far in extolling Apple's virtues.

Apple makes fantastic products, but to compare any of them or even the aggregate of them (and I'm including the Apple II and the original Mac in this, both of which I think are actually bigger game changers than anything 1997+) to any single thing in the list you just rattled off is insanity.

Apple has changed the world of industrial design, sure, and they make wonderful products, but none of that is a real sweeping history-altering game changer.

Let's recognize the great 10 year run they've been on, but let's not get crazy about it.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by pederb72 on Sunday August 28, 2011 @05:15PM (#2934992)
You should watch Life of Brian some time:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/quotes

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by patrickaljord on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:14PM (#2934808)
I agree though that Google has more impact than Apple. Every student, every high schooler or college student, professor, scientist etc around the world use Google to get access to knowledge, learn and get their job done. I live in Peru where every student use google to get knowledge, I haven't seen anyone with an idevice anywhere here.

I think the service Google has done to humanity by making information accessible to all and that easily is hard to match by any company today on earth. Apple makes pretty devices, and accelerated the smartphone revolution (which was already en marche with blackberry as the article say), but on the whole, Google reached and helped (and keep doing so today) much more people than Apple ever has. Not to mention the billions of dollars Google give to publishers from India to Peru helping them make a living, not to mention Android, youtube, blogger etc.

So yes, Google has changed the world much more than Apple in my opinion and experience here and everywhere I've been.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by raganwald on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:19PM (#2934821)
You write as if Google invented web search. They made it dramatically better. But was it so much better that it changed the world? I am certain it was so much better that they killed off their competition, but somehow I don't think they were so much better that students in Peru wouldn't be using Web Search if Google hadn't come along.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by patrickaljord on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:32PM (#2934866)
Yes, Web Search was pretty useless before Google, I was there so I can remember (and I guess you probably were there too).
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by Anechoic on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:21PM (#2934829)
I live in Peru where every student use google to get knowledge,

Sure, but if Google wasn't around they would probably be using Yahoo or AltaVista to get knowledge.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by nirvana on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:20PM (#2934826)
Every one of those people using Google are doing so on a system running a graphical user interface that Apple invented. In fact, it was Apple that invented the personal computer. Full stop.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by tintin on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:23PM (#2934840)
You never heard about Xerox did you?
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by Anechoic on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:34PM (#2934874)
Well the question is "is the GUI that people are using today closer to the PARC GUI or closer to the Mac/Lisa GUI?"

The Apple and Lisa groups were unquestionably influenced by PARC, but a lot of the innovations that are used in today's GUIs come from Apple: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s...

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by schmittz on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:31PM (#2934863)
Although, important to note that while Xerox invented GUIs, they were about to trash the project before Apple stepped in and nurtured it. Speculation about what would have happened if they didn't do this is mostly meaningless, but disregarding the promulgation and popularization of GUIs in lieu of crediting only their original inventor is totally unfair.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by nirvana on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:36PM (#2934881)
Actually, Xerox invented some important technologies, such as the mouse and the idea of a windowed interface, but this was not the GUI. That was invented by Apple. The xerox interface was more akin to emacs multi-document mode, there was no desktop metaphor, no file/folders organization, no trash can, the menubar was a very different conceptualization, etc.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by sbuk on Sunday August 28, 2011 @06:12PM (#2935143)
Xerox categorically did not invent the mouse. Doug Engelbart invented the mouse in the mid-to-late 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfIgzSoTMOs for what is described as "The Mother of All Demos". As to the GUI, again PARC then Apple innovated on the original ideas of others. Ivan Sutherland is credited ad really being the first to develop the notion of the "GUI" - again in the late 60s - with Sketchpad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOZqRJzE8xg. The Xerox interface was in fact essentially Smalltalk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk and http://homepage3.nifty.com/old_apple_world/photo/SmallTalk21...
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by schmittz on Sunday August 28, 2011 @07:50PM (#2935326)
I'll admit at the time I posted my comment, I wasn't particularly well versed in the history of computing. Thanks for the links, they are insightful.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by nirvana on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:32PM (#2934868)
I didn't say Apple invented the mouse or the idea of a winding UI, I said Apple invented the GUI and the personal computer.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by mayanksinghal on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:29PM (#2934858)
But it was Microsoft that revolutionized it.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by oemera on Sunday August 28, 2011 @05:25PM (#2935025)
Yeah Microsoft definitely revolutionized graphical interfaces... Come on! Microsoft never revolutionized anything!
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by svnk on Sunday August 28, 2011 @10:01PM (#2935587)
The Kinect?
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by accoinstereo on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:13PM (#2934806)
But all those innovations were inevitable! So, you know, the Romans surely don't deserve any credit.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by aw3c2 on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:39PM (#2934897)
Because some people might not know the movie and/or get the reference, it is from The Life of Brian, a hilarious comedy from Monty Python. The scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by butterfi on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:29PM (#2934857)
Right on.

Comparing Apple to Google is not very interesting to someone who has watched Apple's entire historical arc, not just the past 5 years.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by mayanksinghal on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:28PM (#2934855)
I actually agree to the part where it says that Apple has not been the different change-maker.

A very large part of the world population is still unaffected by Apple Products. MS for that instance has a much larger impact on the world of personal computing.

Apple did produce some incredibly cool gadgets, but that was about it. iPods and iTunes was probably insanely popular in US (and Europe), just like iPhones and iPads are today - but Microsoft has definitely penetrated at much larger depth and positively (and in some ways, negatively) affected a lot of them. And yes, I know the article is about last 10 years - but even in these 10 years Windows XP was (and in a large population, it still is) THE operating system to have; Office (2003 and 2007) are still used in every damn office.

Aesthetics - yes, Apple products has a huge impact and also to the build quality expectations from hand held devices. But it failed miserably in providing a solution that could be used by masses (It actually focused on a niche clientele, like the ones here). Nokia on the other hand provided devices to the masses - affordable and with insanely awesome build quality. They were not popular in US, but in Asia - buying a non-Nokia phone was considered stupid at one time.

And I am not a MS Fanboi; I am a Google Fanboi. Google is a verb now - Gmail is analogous to mail for most of my friends; youtube is the place we go to listen to music. Maps to get directions, Picasa for uploading pictures and Docs for collaborating on content. I am typing this from using Chromium browser and I had downloaded some libraries from Google Code to use in my Course Project. So the Roman analogy goes for Google, not Apple.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by mayanksinghal on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:49PM (#2934930)
[Any particular reason for downvote(s)?]
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by kubrickslair on Sunday August 28, 2011 @07:25PM (#2935272)
Someone here correctly commented how this post showed Reddit level discussion and team based upmanship. You cannot trace the level of influence in a one-dimensional number line, of any two successful people or companies. Who has had more influence, Facebook, Twitter or even Friendster? pg or avc? Such questions are stupid, just like Erdos-Bacon numbers. They are good for friendly banter, but don't have any real meaning.

I replied to nirvana about how the word inventing does not mean anything. And yet he and you kept on debating on minutiae. Many techie people from India look up to MS and Google as opposed to say Apple or Amazon, partly because their influence is more apparent, so I understand your affinity for them. But attributing invention or success to something which can be attributed to random events and network effects, is a bit off by standards here.

I did not down vote anyone, just making a general comment. Things are never so black and white, grab a good book, read some scientific (non-CS) papers, you will probably have a broader perspective. I would recommend starting with the massive bibliography at the back of The Black Swan (Taleb).

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by tintin on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:12PM (#2934803)
You are giving the wrong summary. A better summary would be: Napster gave us wine, Apple created a nice looking bottle for it. But without bottle there would still be wine.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by lotharbot on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:15PM (#2934811)
The point is that none of what Apple brought about in the last decade was "significant" in the same way that sanitation, ..., public health are. They primarily brought combinations of things we were already doing in slick and usable packages. They produced a bunch of great products, no doubt, but I cringe whenever someone calls an iThing "revolutionary".
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by nirvana on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:26PM (#2934847)
The GUI is a revolution from the command line. The personal computer is a revolution from the mini-computer and the mainframe. Apple invented both of those. The touch interface is revolutionary, compared to plastic buttons, and Apple invented that. I find it amazing that people can claim, with a straight face that Apple "combined things were were already doing in slick and usable packages" about things that did not exist before Apple invented them. Its like you hate Apple so much you have to rewrite history to make them less significant. There was no personal computer before the Apple I and Apple II. There were no GUIs before the Lisa. There was not touch UI before the iPhone. AT worst you could point to the crappy windows tablets of 2003 and say that the "iPad didn't invent the tablet market", but that's the same as saying google didn't invent the search engine... which, while true, completely ignores that page rank is a genuine innovation.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by mayanksinghal on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:34PM (#2934876)
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by nirvana on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:52PM (#2934936)
If you want to disagree with what I said, you need to make an actual argument. Simply providing links is an automatic failure, because you're expecting me to go hunting for a counter argument to the statements I made, and none of those links were written in rebuttal to them.

That being said, your links are not authoritative, nor do they even address what I said.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by mayanksinghal on Sunday August 28, 2011 @05:04PM (#2934964)
You can't make statements like X invented Y and then add earlier versions of Y weren't Y because they were not as good as X's implementation of Y.

That is very much like believing in Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's logically irrefutable, but sounds absurd.

[Edit: Spell]

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by nirvana on Sunday August 28, 2011 @05:12PM (#2934981)
You're knocking down a strawman. Your argument is that the guy who invented the internal combustion engine didn't actually invent it because the guy who invented the piston is the one who invented it.
Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by mayanksinghal on Sunday August 28, 2011 @05:23PM (#2935020)
Xerox is known to be the inventor of GUI. Apple made it popular. There is a difference.

It's very much like how Apple invented PC but MS revolutionized and captured the market. I am giving due credit to all parties; you are omitting/trivializing all the conceptualization that went into an earlier concept - the ones that Apple's products were based upon.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by nirvana on Sunday August 28, 2011 @05:41PM (#2935072)
>Xerox is known to be the inventor of GUI.

This is a lie that you really shouldn't be perpetuating. This isn't a question of opinion, but of historical fact, an you are telling a falsehood. There's no debating it.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by lotharbot on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:56PM (#2934945)
Recall that the context of this article is innovations over the last decade. Both the GUI and personal computers are 35+ years old (and neither were pioneered by Apple; Xerox invented the GUI, and other systems like the TRS-80 and Altair 8800 were on the market in the Apple I/II era). Even direct-manipulation touchscreen interfaces predate this decade; I remember ordering at Arby's using such a system in the 1990s.

I'm no Apple hater. I just want to keep an appropriate perspective. They've made some VERY good products, but over the last decade, their focus has been more on "putting together a complete product in a slick, well-made package" than on "making life-changing leaps". There's nothing wrong with that, but don't mistake it for something it's not.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by nirvana on Sunday August 28, 2011 @05:08PM (#2934973)
The context of this article is denigrating Apple by misrepresenting, using falsehoods, its contributions to the computer industry. When you claim that "neither were pioneered by Apple" you tell an outright lie. The Apple I was on the market before the TRS-80, and the Altair 8800 was a kit that didn't even produce a complete computer, it was not a personal computer. Xerox did not invent the GUI.

The idea that an arby's touchscreen means Apple didn't invent anything with the touch UI is so dishonest that it boggles the mind that you could say it in public with a straight face, seriously. The only motivation for doing so is either that you're really uninformed about this stuff and are just repeating what you've heard from Apple haters, or you're an Apple hater.

Seriously. This is Hacker News. This is not uninformed barely-computer literate consumer news. If we can't be honest about the major contributors to computer science here, then the site is completely lost.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by lotharbot on Sunday August 28, 2011 @05:38PM (#2935065)
There's an unreasonable amount of emotionally charged language in your post. This is Hacker News, not "call people uninformed barely-computer literate consumers and haters because they don't share your viewpoint news". Make your arguments in a civil manner, please.

--------

The Altair 8800 was a kit computer, which could also be ordered preassembled. The Apple I had a fully assembled circuit board, but still required assembly of other components. The TRS-80 and Apple II were both fully preassembled, and contemporary with each other. It's fair to say that Apple was an important player in the move toward personal computers, but I don't think it's fair to say they invented them.

AFAIK, Xerox was the first company to use an actual GUI, on the Alto (none of what Stanford did before would qualify as a "GUI", IMO.) Apple's Lisa was a big step forward for the GUI, adding things like window controls and menus. Again, Apple was an important player in the move to GUIs, and pioneered several specific GUI elements, but it's not fair to say they invented the GUI.

And, of course, both of these inventions are well over a decade old; when speaking about companies that "changed everything" between 2000 and 2010, they're not relevant.

Your references to "the touch UI" are confusing. I'm not aware of any product with that name. My best guess is that you're referring to some specific detail of iOS -- multitouch, perhaps? Without clarification, I don't really know how to respond to this particular point, or even if it needs responded to. Apple certainly put together a nice UI, and probably invented several specific conventions in doing so; I'm just not sure what in particular you think is revolutionary or needs to be acknowledged.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by kubrickslair on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:33PM (#2934871)
Parent and grandparent, take some deep breadths and relax. Please don't quibble. Then watch this rather insightful video titled 'Everything is a Remix' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq5D43qAsVg

And pardon me, for coming off as arrogant, but I hate to see trivial fights here when you are missing the bigger picture.

Re:Apple changed everything? Yeah, right. by iamdave on Sunday August 28, 2011 @04:08PM (#2934796)
This.

It seems the writer here is wearing blinders; it's fine if you're not a proponent of Apple Inc. that's 100% your prerogative, but if you're going to cherrypick which points stick and which don't so that the only thing that's left are the ones that directly support whatever point, well sorry.