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Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by 88913527 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:14PM (#29244245)
When many people have few assets, and few people have many, and you cause the value of assets to go up, the nominal gap between two is larger, but the relative amounts are the same. This is basic math. Suppose we have two individuals who experience 25% growth due to QE:

Person A: $1,000 * 25% growth = $1,250

Person B: $1,000,000 * 25% growth = $1,250,000

Originally, the wealth gap between A and B was 1000:1. It remains 1000:1 after the asset appreciation. However, because wage income has long been stagnant, it becomes increasingly difficult for the poorer person to play catch up, because labor income can't scale in the way capital can. Both the proportional change and real change are worth considering when it comes to setting public policy.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by bhupy on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:23PM (#29244403)
That's the logical hypothesis, but the article we're commenting on seems to show that it's more complicated.

FTA:

"The logical case for why the Fed’s activities cause wealth concentration is that low interest rates and high levels of QE tend to boost asset prices, such as stocks and real estate, which are primarily owned by the wealthy. By making homes and stocks more expensive and unaffordable, it widens the wealth gap between those who owned those assets before the Fed began its QE vs those who were not yet significant asset holders when this occurred. There are other more nuanced arguments, but let’s start with that one, because that’s the main one.

If that’s the case, and QE is indeed a powerful force for wealth concentration, we should see that the nations that have the lowest interest rates and that have performed the most QE relative to their GDP, have the highest levels of wealth inequality, right?

In reality, we find the opposite.

...

The regions that did the most QE relative to their GDP, and that have had lower interest rates for longer, have less wealth inequality, not more, as measured by the ratio of the mean wealth divided by the median wealth.

If the prior theory was true, we should have seen the opposite. More of a correlation, rather than an inverse correlation.

...

I’m not making the argument that QE reduces wealth concentration, because that’s not the case either. Instead the point is, it’s complicated. QE and interest rates by themselves are significantly uncorrelated (or even inversely correlated) variables vs how much wealth concentration a country has, when comparing between countries.

That is an uncommon view, but that’s simply how the math works out. Clearly we need to look at the nuances."

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by whimsicalism on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:42PM (#29244689)
It seems like many people in this thread are missing that poor people are often underwater in debt, so lower rates help them.

There is a reason most of the farmer uprisings in the early US were over wanting more inflation rather than deflationary policy that made the value of their debt payments higher.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by ruined on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:11PM (#29245050)
poor people don't get lower rates. they get payday loans and 19% credit cards, or a tent.

inflation is "good" for debts if your budget is otherwise balanced and your income rises apace, but if either is not the case inflation will only depress purchasing power.

historical farmer revolts were interested in higher inflation because they had land, a real asset, and sold crops, real commodities, that provided appropriate income. modern poor people generally have zero assets.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by whimsicalism on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:23PM (#29245215)
> poor people don't get lower rates. they get payday loans and 19% credit cards, or a tent.

Rates are relative, looser money absolutely translates to lower rates, even for poor people. Claiming otherwise is (social) science denial.

> modern poor people generally have zero assets.

Poor and lower class people are often deeply in debt. Many poor people will even have homes with very large mortgages outstanding, and without a route to paying it down. The median black person in Boston, for instance, (not to conflate race and poverty, it is just an illustrative statistic that comes to mind) has $8 to their name. That does not mean they literally only have $8 in a wallet somewhere, but it does mean half of those people are underwater in debt. This is before you even start looking at mortgages. I'm assuming that is not unique to Boston.

That is actually very analogous to the situation we are finding ourselves in. Tighter policy would increase the real value of the payments that poor people have to make on their homes, etc.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by Ericson2314 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:50PM (#29246201)
Poor people don't have mortgages. In a non-shit city they shouldn't even have cars (a depreciating asset won't do them any good).

Pay check to pay check can mean literally that. Money comes in, money goes out. There is no buffer. UDP not TCP life :D.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by fivea on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @06:40PM (#29247684)
> Rates are relative, looser money absolutely translates to lower rates, even for poor people. Claiming otherwise is (social) science denial.

This hypothesis presumes that loans are priced exclusively based on cost.

However, all products and services are priced based on willingness to pay, and profit is the delta between cost of delivering it and what customers are willing to pay.

Price gouging runs rampant on credit cards because they are designed to gouge their users. The credit card adoption and payment customer experiences are extremely smooth and free from any resistance to the point where you can pretty much find yourself with a new credit card in your pocket without knowing how. However, avoiding charges and interest payments is extremely hard by design, specially when compared with debit cards. Customers cannot escape these charges, and with low income customers they syphon a relatively large portion of the little disposable income they have.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by Ericson2314 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:49PM (#29246188)
Farmers needed loans to get them between harvests, and those were also quite usurious. The land was in relative abundance (even with the "end of the frontier"), so it's not like it was the sort of anchoring asset that middle class home-ownership today is crocked up to be.

But you are right that poor assets or debts are not enough to explain how interests rates are supposed to help or hurt them. The idea is very roughly that lower interest rates unlock investment which causes them to have jobs.

The traditional first approximation is regular people live entirely off income and have no meaningful assets or debts, and rich people don't work and just have assets and debts, live off profits/dividends, or even just loans with their appreciating assets as collateral. It is "class as calculus" as I wrote more about in another comment.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by dnautics on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @07:13PM (#29247947)
> The idea is very roughly that lower interest rates unlock investment which causes them to have jobs.

Let's be honest here, this is just a neoliberal fantasy that amounts to a liberal equivalent of trickle-down:. Enrich the rich and the $ (via "jobs") will make it magically to the Lower classes.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by Ericson2314 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:56PM (#29248567)
Yes, but sadly the idea is less controversial with rich institutions (who presumably buy much of the treasury bonds) than it is with rich people/households.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by xxpor on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:19PM (#29245182)
>they get payday loans and 19% credit cards, or a tent.

The rates for those are still lower than they otherwise would be.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by ruined on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:28PM (#29245271)
payday loan APR is generally around 300% to 700%. this is not a rate set by a market, it is the claw of a predator, useful only to deal a killing blow.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by whimsicalism on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:32PM (#29245313)
Rates are set by a market.

It's interesting how even as formal christianity is in decline, the moral constructs that it popularized (distaste for usury, protestant emphasis on liberty over well-being) morph into new forms.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by kbelder on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @07:11PM (#29247938)
"Can I borrow $10? I'll pay you back $11 next week."

There, you've just committed the sin of collecting 14,000% APR.

You can't compare payday loans to things like mortgage rates or bond returns. It's a market, but it's a very different niche. It's like comparing the cost of mineral water at the grocery star to the cost per gallon of your tap water.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by xxpor on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:31PM (#29245303)
A lot of states have capped those rates relative to prime.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by ruined on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:38PM (#29245388)
which simply reinforces the idea that it's not a market. credit cards, too, are generally capped.

the rate always maxes out the legislated cap. so it's not really dependent.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by Ericson2314 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:54PM (#29246233)
Yes the market power is also one sided, capping the rate also doesn't really help without guaranteeing more access to credit.

The best thing is:

a) UBI, just hand out a tiny bit of money to make poor people more liquid, because liquidity kills, not insolvency

b) postal banking, because even shittier than a payday loan is high fee check cashing without a pretense of debt!

Poor people hopefully at the point can save up a paychecks worth of buffer in their bank account, and don't need postal bank loans to replay payday loans.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by wussboy on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:55PM (#29245606)
Maybe the more meaningful question is, "Why are poor people often in debt?" And how would we address that?
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by MisterMower on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @01:35AM (#29249824)
And perhaps the answer is to make borrowing more costly and saving more profitable through higher interest rates.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by imtringued on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @07:17AM (#29252068)
I'm not sure how higher interest is supposed to help them. According to your logic, payday lenders are doing poor people a favor.

If you asked people 20 years ago they would say compounding interest that massively exceeds inflation is evil. Nowadays people are worried about low interest being a problem because of their wholly incomplete model of economics that doesn't even address unavoidable natural monopolies like location.

The land market is inherently inefficient. That fact was papered over by high interest rates. Instead of paying the landlord huge sums, you paid the banks huge sums. Now that interest isn't going to the banks it's going to the landlord again.

The solution is obvious. Tax monopoly rights with a pigovian tax. The mythical free market in consumer goods only exists because of well written property laws. The mythical free market in land doesn't exist because the existing property laws are written extremely poorly.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by ahallock on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:53PM (#29246223)
Debt isn't always bad. It's a powerful tool (leverage), and bankruptcy shouldn't have a stigma.

We need people to be financially educated. We teach calculus in schools but very little on finance. Perhaps that's changed since I was in high school, but for me, it was non-existent.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by Ericson2314 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:04PM (#29246332)
Debt should be for doing interesting things. Like if you are expanding your business. It shouldn't be needed in the steady state. Poor people don't do interesting "events" economically be definition! Truly, to be poor is "stuff happens to you", not "you happen to stuff". The vast majority of people should not need loans.

If we want people to be more "creative" we should achieve that with firstly with more leisure team for hobbies. No faux-entrepreneurship hustle culture. No trying to "acculture the poor" with extrinsic rewards, when rich kids have the luxury of not having the intrinsic rewards beaten out of them. Let people have hobbies. Let people involve their neighbors and pool their UBIs for the bigger-scale ones. Let no one need debt to survive.

We should go "common core" on calculus. The essence to understanding economics right is stocks vs flows, and even if people never learn "this method of solving integrals, they should be able to see a graphed function, and draw it's rough derivative and integral. It's an essential skill. They should also know how to ride bikes and kinesthetically learn this stuff on hills. It is an essential toolkit of thinking, no symbols or formalism needed or wanted.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by raxxorrax on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @04:24AM (#29250687)
> Debt isn't always bad.

I know the mantra of our financial system that creating debt also creates opportunity, but that is certainly detached from reality if used to form a general rule. For a average Joe, debt is exclusively bad. For states? They have more possibilities. But at that point we are talking about completely different forms of debt.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by gruez on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:40PM (#29245431)
> It seems like many people in this thread are missing that poor people are often underwater in debt, so lower rates help them.

...only if inflation rates are on the way up (ie. higher than expected). on the way down (ie. inflation is lower than expected), they lose out.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by tomp on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:00PM (#29244901)
Until next month, when person A has $0 compounding at 25%, and person B has $1 249 000 compounding at 25% (a.k.a. cost of living).
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by kranke155 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:18PM (#29244320)
Thomas Picketty - didn’t he show returns on assets far outgain salary growth ?
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by bhupy on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:22PM (#29244371)
That was his thesis, but it's since been questioned/refuted:

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2016/wp16160.pdf

> Using a sample of 19 advanced economies spanning over 30 years, I find no empirical evidence that dynamics move in the way Piketty suggests. Results are robust to several alternative estimates of r-g.

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/11/28/economists-are...

http://davidsplinter.com/AutenSplinter-Tax_Data_and_Inequali...

> Top income share estimates based only on individual tax returns, such as Piketty and Saez (2003), are biased by tax-base changes, major social changes, and missing income sources. Addressing these issues requires numerous assumptions, especially for broadening income beyond that reported on tax returns. This paper shows the effects of adjusting for technical tax issues and the sensitivity to alternative assumptions for distributing missing income sources. Our results suggest that top income shares are lower than other tax-based estimates, and since the early 1960s, increasing government transfers and tax progressivity resulted in little change in after-tax top income shares.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by throw0101a on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:36PM (#29244597)
Piketty on Góes's IMF paper:

> Piketty's response[55] noted, however, that Góes used measures of income inequality rather than wealth inequality, and inappropriately took the interest rate on sovereign debt as his index of the rate of return on capital, which makes his results not commensurate with those of Piketty's study.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Ce...

[55] FR: https://www.lesechos.fr/2016/09/thomas-piketty-repond-a-letu...

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by bhupy on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:55PM (#29244846)
Yeah the Auten-Splinter research is the most contemporary critique, relative to the 2014 IMF paper, and is the one that's most widely accepted now. Piketty, Saez, et al have yet to really address anything there.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by kranke155 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:27PM (#29244455)
I am not familiar with any complete refutation of his work. Some questions here and there
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by imtringued on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @07:27AM (#29252179)
Yields have gone down as assets go up. Interest has gone down. Only land follows that pattern.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by certnlyuncertn on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:21PM (#29246498)
Your scenario is missing the very common case where people have exactly zero assets. If you take that (common) case into consideration it is very clear that both the nominal gap and the relative gap increases.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by iovrthoughtthis on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:20PM (#29245882)
as is traditional in brief economic analysis, time is not accounted for here.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by nly on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:22PM (#29244389)
Compounding returns makes growth exponential. When you look at it that way the rich guy is just further up the curve, but you're on the same trajectory.

In your simple example (25% returns annualised) he's only 31 years ahead!

Don't you just feel better now?

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by 88913527 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:35PM (#29244581)
Let's do the math for compounding returns. Suppose 7% growth for 30 years, same Person A and B:

$1000 * (1.07 ^ 30) = 7,612.25

$1,000,000 * (1.07 ^ 30) = 7,612,255.04

Proportionally, It's still 1000:1. So we see compounding doesn't change the relative difference. But now we're getting to absolute gap that's simply uncoverable by wage income, unless you can land in the professional management class, which effectively sets its own wages (board members voting for compensation packages for one another).

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by wonderwonder on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:37PM (#29245377)
This is 100% correct, however for the person with less money they are going to be spending a much larger percentage of their funds each month than the richer one. So in reality the richer person will accelerate ahead and the ratio will get worse for the poor person every year.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by keymone on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:41PM (#29245436)
now account for $500 cost of living. or $100, which is lower than almost anywhere in the world. A will be broke while B won't even notice.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by pureliquidhw on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:29PM (#29245986)
This is the real issue. Excess cash poured into and competing for assets. Having 90% of your money available to invest vs 10% creates a massive difference in real outcomes.
Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by notahacker on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:53PM (#29244812)
If wages also go up by 7% then the absolute gap definitely is uncoverable by wage income.

Sure, they often don't but the reason they don't has little to do with QE. After all, the entire point of QE and monetary stimulus in general is central banks are concerned that not enough jobs are being created and real wage cuts and layoffs will result. And in that scenario where credit is expensive and businesses are looking at layoffs, our wealthy investor is still getting 7% returns, just from offering expensive short term credit to struggling businesses rather than seeing the long term shareholder value of thriving businesses rise. But the worker is even further from catching them up, because they're struggling to find a job.

Re:Does QE Cause Wealth Inequality? by nly on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:59PM (#29244883)
Sure, they'll always be ahead, but 1000x as wealth sounds pretty impossible compared to 'a lifetime or so of compound returns'.

Most people only need to build a $2-3M pot to be financially independent, be able to stop working, and still live better than most working Americans, which is the biggest quality of life improvement there is in acquiring wealth.

The utility of wealth falls off a cliff pretty quickly. Replacing a $200K/yr salary from passive income in perpetuity with a good level of certainty would require a pot of $6-7M

At 7% (above inflation), most people still need to spend 30 years saving 30% of their salary before they can reach a level (30x) that can replace it. 15% over 40 years also works.