In Belgium we have pedelecs (max 25kmh) and speed pedelecs (max 45kmh). Pedelecs are catagorized as bicycles, and speed pedelecs as scooters, which require a license plate and all other stuff, including their proper place on the road.

In California it's 32kph (class 1 with pedal, class 2 with throttle) and 45 kph (class 3, pedal assist only)

Class 1 and 2 are currently allowed on all paved paths that bicycles are allowed on.

Class 3 does not require a license, may use the lanes on roads for bicycles, but not walk/bike paths. You also must be 16 or older to operate one.

Enforcement is currently nonexistent where I live. I regularly see people with ostensibly class 2 e-bikes going 50kph, having modified the motor controller.

Details like that certainly need to be worked out but such criticisms are usually made in a way that ignores the bigger picture.

Internal combustion engines contribute substantially to pollution and human-caused climate change. Motor vehicle accidents maim and kill lots of people every year yet fans of that form of transportation hand wave it off as irrelevant.

We don't have to speed blindly into the future on our current vector. We can change course. It will take work and creative solutions.

Not to say such concerns shouldn't be brought up but they shouldn't be brought up in a manner that sounds entirely dismissive of a new solution with a lot of promise. Ideally, it gets brought up in a more constructive fashion overall that is more conducive to meaningful engagement and less prone to simply making people mad or defensive.

I worry more about the added mass of the e-bikes in the case of a collision with a pedestrian, another cyclist, or a traditional motor vehicle. Potential speeds are relatively the same.

I own and frequently ride e-bike, and am an advocate. That being said, operating one should be done responsibly.

Perhaps your comment could inspire some useful discourse if it were worded less negatively?

You are strongly suggesting it yourself, that if not for the speed the difference would be negligible.

The other factor dividing the two realms in practice is control: in a bicycle the speed is directly a function of leg activity: does the "legs independent" motor-bicycle offer the basically same degree of control?

In pedal assist mode, the motor stops when you stop pedaling. So it is the same concept. In full throttle only control, obviously it is not even the same.

What's the difference between that claim and the claim "if cars which can go 120mph are legally considered cars then every jackass can zoom down the highway at 120mph"? The difference, of course, is that highways have speed limits.

You realize it is not hard for a cyclist to hit 25-30mph without motor assist, right?

At one time I was a Cat 1 (last stop before pro) bicycle racer. Races would typically spend hours at 25mph, so I have a pretty good idea of how hard it is. 30mph on flat ground, unassisted, for any non-trivial length of time? Yeah, damned hard even if you're in shape (and impossible if you're not). 25mph by yourself? It might be "not hard...to hit" 25mph, but to sustain that speed is going to be nearly impossible for the ones I see zooming by on their electric motorcycles. And it's going to be tough workout even for an in-shape cyclist. As another commenter points out, that's over 300 watts. If you can do that for your hour ride to work, go get a race license, you'll do well.

Exactly. The kind of stuff thrown around in this thread borders on the unbelievable or we have a couple of pro riders here that I wasn't previously aware of. I think I know a couple of really strong cyclists (notably, my brother but also others) and in spite of my injury I'm no slouch and am rarely overtaken on a regular racer but if I'm to believe this thread then I really should be checking my bike if something is dragging or not ;)

I'd argue 25-30mph is not an easy cruising speed for most bike commuters. Unless I'm on the wrong forum and everyone here races Cat 1/2 in their spare time.

I'm no competitive cyclist, and in pedal assit mode on my eBike, the motor stops being because I'm pedaling at 20mph on my own. My eBike is also a big heavy bike, so from where I'm pedaling, I'd assume others can do the same on a better bike. <shrugs>

Power required increases with the square of the speed being primarily a function of wind resistance at higher speeds. Your motor shutting off cause you hit 20mph on a slight decline might give you the wrong impression.

Maintaining 25mph requires in excess of 300 watts. Some 90% of the population won't be able to produce that for a mere minute.

In short bursts or downhill sure? Consistently in a commute? No, that is definitely atypical.

Do you ride bikes or mostly just e-bike?

I don't have a wardrobe in spandex. I ride bicycles for fun and commuting, not sport. Only time I rode a bike for any kind of fitness was long long ago in offseason for running sports. My pedal bike is a beach cruiser and has 3 gears on it. Not getting competitive with that, and have actually been told to get out of the bike lane in spandex wearing asshats.

For 10 minutes tops or when falling down an embankment, sure.