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Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by enragedcacti on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:41PM (#29190714)
> Unfortunately, if we get into a car accident, we don't get to ask the driver of the vehicle we're colliding with to change their location, angle of impact, and speed, in order for the collision to comply with an IIHS, NHTSA, or *NCAP, test protocol.

I'm smitten with the stupid idea of teaching your self-driving car that when a crash can't be avoided it should attempt to make the crash as close as possible to the nearest crash test protocol of the jurisdiction it's operating in.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by MaxBareiss on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:00PM (#29190915)
Modern vehicles have seatbelt pre-tensioners to get drivers as close to the tested crash position as quickly as possible. Some vehicles also move the seat position before a crash to get you closer to the test position as well.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by eunoia on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:26PM (#29194061)
My 2019 Volvo XC40 pre-tensions the seatbelts and moves the seats like this.

I didn’t know it was a feature until I nearly got rear ended waiting on a left turn and the car went into rear impact protection mode. (Other driver veered off at the last second). It was quite impressive tbh.

Edit: For the curious:

https://www.volvocars.com/lb/support/manuals/xc90/2018w46/dr...

https://www.volvocars.com/en-th/support/manuals/v60/2017w17/...

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by Swizec on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:41PM (#29191394)
> it should attempt to make the crash as close as possible to the nearest crash test protocol

You jest but this is what humans and animals do instinctively. When you fall, you try to fall in a way that minimizes damage.

For example, if you trip over something and your hands are occupied so you can't use them to catch yourself, you will instinctively try to roll onto your shoulder instead of faceplanting into the ground.

You see this in freestyle motorcycle and mountain bike riding, and skateboarding etc as well. If you see you aren't going to land the trick, you try to throw the bike or skateboard away from you and land feet first down the ramp. Plenty of videos of pros doing this on youtube.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by kube-system on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:55PM (#29191595)
The way pros fall is definitely more than just instinct, though. The human instinct to fully extend an arm when falling is a much worse way to fall than tuck-and-roll, etc.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by Swizec on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:04PM (#29191714)
Fair. I probably spent enough of my youth on mountain bikes and rollerblades to develop those instincts.

An AI driver should have those instincts too imo. I’d expect my car to crash in the safest possible way if it can’t not crash.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by jhgb on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:50PM (#29190811)
> when a crash can't be avoided it should attempt to make the crash as close as possible to the nearest crash test protocol of the jurisdiction it's operating in

Like quickly put a dummy in your seat and throw you out?

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by ketralnis on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:35PM (#29191315)
My motorcycle safety course said that in a car accident the safest place for you is inside the car in the middle of all of those airbag deployments, but in a motorcycle accident the safest place is to be thrown as far away from all of the spinning colliding sliding bending grinding metal as possible
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by TacticalCoder on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:29PM (#29194095)
I went "over the bars" twice. Once I was passenger on a motorbike and I flew over the car we hit. The other time I was driving the motorbike and I did brake until the very end, thinking "oh shit, won't do": I stood up on the bike, while still braking. And flew over the car again. Waking up in the ambulance, temporarily blind, not knowing which year it was nor if I had a wife or not, wasn't cool. It took I'd say easily 15 minutes before I could see again: I started regaining sight in the hospital although I clearly remember paramedics talking to me in the ambulance.

I'm very lucky, in both cases, I didn't hit anything but the road. Especially not the car.

I still rode MX bike on tracks for a while then eventually quite entirely.

Now I've got a mountain bike and it's scary enough already!

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by jacquesm on Thursday November 11, 2021 @06:13PM (#29194464)
How was your wife?

And did you stop riding?

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by rootusrootus on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:46PM (#29191470)
One of my older brothers had that policy -- if at all possible he pushed away from the bike as hard as he could when it was clear an accident was unavoidable. He actually used that strategy twice, believe it or not. Worked swimmingly both times, which could just be chance.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by saiya-jin on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:28PM (#29193422)
You have to have proper luck with trajectory (your older brother had it to tell you the stories) - you go fast on a bike, you keep that speed when jumping off it. Then you either hit something hard (probably instant death) or you land and start sliding/tumbling.

If you still don't hit anything, you can often even walk away, or end up with minor arm/foot injury. Unfortunately I've seen videos of contrary, ie couple riding same bike, hitting car, flying over it, sliding maybe 50m and still hitting curb so hard their bodies jumped quite a bit in the air. Both dead on spot.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by rootusrootus on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:45PM (#29194234)
I don't remember the second accident, but I still recall the first one. A small car (VW Bug) pulled out in front of him and he t-boned it. He jumped. It was in an otherwise open area, so he rolled. Banged up a bit, but he figured he ended up better than if he had stayed with the bike, which ended up embedded in the car (something about VW Bugs having not much in the front wheel area that was strong, and that's where the bike hit).

As I said, it could entirely have been chance that this worked out for the best. I'm not a rider myself, and my brother is not an expert just a rando like me who has had a fair amount of interesting experiences in his life (how he is still alive today, I'm not quite sure, but luck has to be the biggest factor).

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by jeffbee on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:11PM (#29193876)
This is one of those feral motorcyclist myths (another one is "loud pipes save lives"). It's just a weird meme that there's some critical point at which it is optimal to throw your bike down and leap clear. That's nonsense. It's always optimal to stay on the bike and brake as hard as possible up to the moment of impact. Always. The energy necessary to get the bike into an intentional low-side dismount so you can jump clear is always better spent dumping kinetic energy into the brakes, with the bike fully upright and the front wheel fully loaded.

Another completely insane motorcyclist meme is if you are inevitably going to strike an animal in the road, it's better to hit it in a wheelie, that is, with the front wheel raised off the ground. Again: insane.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by orangepurple on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:30PM (#29194104)
When you jump off the bike you lose kinetic energy over a larger distance than in a vehicle impact due to skidding over tarmac
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by jeffbee on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:40PM (#29194191)
You don't personally have the strength to significantly change your vector. If you try to jump off the bike you are going to end up hitting whatever you were going to hit anyway. You may have an instantaneous power of perhaps 1-2 horsepower if you are superbly fit and are for some reason braced for action. The brakes on your motorcycle can decelerate you as much as 1g in dry weather. It's better to stay on.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by fencepost on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:24PM (#29194038)
Worked swimmingly both times, which could just be chance.

Survivor bias. The people that it didn't work for don't get to tell you how well it worked.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by mcny on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:28PM (#29194082)
My dad used to always tell me the story of someone in our extended family who got in an accident while riding his bike (he had his helmet on) and rode his bike himself to the hospital only to die the same day.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by fencepost on Saturday November 13, 2021 @03:56PM (#29213099)
Not a medical professional, but that could easily be caused by something like a subdural hematoma.

I'm reminded of a talk at a science fiction convention years ago mostly targeted at writers (and done by a physician) - "Maim 'em Right." Basic message was that when writing injuries, make them realistic. If someone takes a blow to the head that knocks them unconscious for a significant amount of time, they're not resting for a day then getting up and going on to lots of exertion and winning the day. They're suffering from concussion, maybe subdural hematoma/brain bleed, etc.

Also discussion of TBI, including things like shaken baby syndrome - in the skull, the brain has a consistency somewhat more durable than thick jello. Get one of those brain jello molds available around Halloween, make a batch, then instead of unmolding it keep it sealed and give it a good shaking. THEN unmold it and see how much damage there's been.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by i_am_proteus on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:51PM (#29194282)
This is half-true.

Getting run over by a car after going down is a bad day.

The real technique, in my opinion (I have been down a few times), is to use the brakes to take off as much speed as possible while, if you can, bringing both the bike and yourself off the roadway and onto a shoulder or median.

And always: legal or not, lane split into stopped traffic so that it's an instinct. More than once the car in front of me has slammed his brakes on and I've split in next to him, only for him to be rear-ended by the car which was behind me.

Much better to be next to a car that is rear-ended than to be behind one.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by jacquesm on Thursday November 11, 2021 @06:15PM (#29194479)
I always move to the left in the left lane and to the right in the middle and right lanes when stopping or slowing down a lot on the highway to ensure that bikes have some place to go. Usually the car behind me gets it and then you can see a whole seam opening up. This also helps in case emergency vehicles need to pass.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by briHass on Thursday November 11, 2021 @03:02PM (#29192439)
The downside to this is that you also need to stop moving slowly. The benefit of airbags/crumple zones is that they prevent your squishy body from decelerating too rapidly. Great if you can get off the motorcycle and slowly slide to a stop in a dirt field, less good if you slide into a barrier or telephone pole.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:25PM (#29194042)
At the risk of pissing off the people who care about automobile safety only as far as it enables them to earn internet virtue points...

Which decelerates your face more gently, 14" of air space for it to flop around in or 5" of air followed by 9" of airbag? Engineering tradeoff are everywhere.

You're absolutely right that slowing down slowly is the name of the game. Failing that, evenly spreading the force is the next best thing.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by deckard1 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:34PM (#29193498)
Being away from other cars is one thing, but how you get there is another.

There are only two ways to go down on a motorcycle. High-side or low-side. Pretty sure most people would prefer low-side if they ever had to pick. I had a high-side crash on a bicycle once. Luckily it was a grass field with soft dirt. Had to go home and change my pants after that one.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by WrtCdEvrydy on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:06PM (#29191750)
I mean, points for being right. We should create Star Trek teleporters so we can use them to avoid motorcycle accidents.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by stavros on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:18PM (#29191927)
I don't think the teleporter would absorb the momentum though. You'd just fly out of it and smash on the nearest wall.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by sudosysgen on Thursday November 11, 2021 @03:56PM (#29193056)
We could teleport you into a fluffy bouncy comfy room with inflatable walls.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by thatguy0900 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:26PM (#29192023)
The insurance company just needs to lease out one of those giant trampoline bounce houses to teleport all of its policyholders into.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by _carbyau_ on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:57PM (#29193709)
What happens when two accidents happen at the "same" time?

Whoever is running the teleporter would have to have "collision avoidance" strategies I guess. :-)

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by jhgb on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:24PM (#29193391)
Then how does it slow Enterprise's crew from orbital velocity when beaming them down to a planet?
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by stavros on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:35PM (#29193504)
The ship is on a geostationary orbit, obviously.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by jhgb on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:12PM (#29193886)
There's around 4 km/s difference between geostationary orbital speed and the surface of the Earth. For a zero inclination circular orbit, you'd need to be at an altitude of ~1855000 km to have linear velocity equal to the nadir on Earth's surface.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by Arrath on Friday November 12, 2021 @03:45PM (#29204312)
Okay the mental image of this is pretty funny, I will admit.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by quijoteuniv on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:40PM (#29192189)
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Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by Someone1234 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:06PM (#29190986)
I lilke the concept, but suspect it won't ever happen because the increased liability is too high.

If the self-driving tries, and it worsens the impact somehow, bigger lawsuit. If the self-driving fails to do so, bigger lawsuit.

And it might sound "insane" that a best attempt could result in worse liability than no attempt, but unfortunately there is a lot of legal precedent to back up the idea.

PS - Although legislation could make self-driving manufacturers immune from increased liability for these "best effort" systems.

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by rkagerer on Thursday November 11, 2021 @10:32PM (#29196065)
Airbags are a pretty aggressive crash protection system. e.g. Have been cases of glasses-wearers getting their face mangled in collisions they otherwise would have been ok in. Yet that tech still managed to get widely adopted by industry.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by runnerup on Sunday November 14, 2021 @12:13AM (#29215483)
> Attempt to make the crash as close as possible to the nearest crash test protocol

What if the nearest crash test protocol is an absolute "worst case" scenario like the "small overlap test" [0]. Here, getting any additional coverage would improve the outcome, even though it makes it less similar to the most-relevant IIHS test.

0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZC8Ykl1esE

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by jacquesm on Thursday November 11, 2021 @06:11PM (#29194439)
I had a pretty bad accident way back in the 80's where I had the choice between multiple small impacts or one big one. That was a very easy choice to make. Obviously, this sort of opportunity to make a choice is extremely rare in case of an accident. Unfortunately 'no accident' wasn't on the menu any more.
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by chrisseaton on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:44PM (#29191439)
Some cars actually do change their geometry prior to a crash! Things like raise the suspension on the side about to be impacted so the car is higher!
Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by turtlebits on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:50PM (#29191531)
Mercedes interestingly has a system to protect your ears by playing a sound pre-crash as well.

https://www.mercedesbenzofnatick.com/new-features-mercedes-b...

Re:How do cars fare in crash tests they're not specifically ... by Arrath on Friday November 12, 2021 @03:53PM (#29204403)
Wow I wouldn't have even thought about a pre-crash sound being beneficial. Really interesting, thanks for the link.