News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by ivalm on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @03:30PM (#29099219)
> hire people that actually care

One thing to note is that hiring skilled IT workers is often outside budget capabilities. It’s not that they want to hire someone incompetent, they simply can’t afford to hire someone competent.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by willis936 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @03:49PM (#29099432)
It doesn't help that they used a Soviet method of denying shortcomings in hopes that fantasy will overrule reality. What can you do when you have limited resources to make your situation worse? Punish people who are helping you for free.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by AstroDogCatcher on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:55PM (#29101546)
Incompetent people will do anything they can to avoid admitting that they are incompetent.

One of the more interesting possible outcomes of a UBI I hope to see in my lifetime is the ejection of many of the seat-warmers currently occupying IT positions in western public sector organisations.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by passerby1 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:14PM (#29102238)
On contrary, it could get worse. The next level after UBI is here, would be an ego satisfaction.

Anyone on a power trip is playing this game with passion, more than a merely seat-warmer.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by sirspacey on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:36PM (#29101350)
No.

There has been massive interest in modernizing these systems.

It’s the beliefs and attitudes of leadership that cause well intentioned engineers who are willing to take a lower salary to leave

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by heavyset_go on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:38PM (#29099961)
Middle schools can pay administrators $250k+ a year, but can't afford sys admins?
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by treeman79 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:45PM (#29100031)
My wife (teacher) wasn’t allowed to use the microwave for a year due to the cost of electricity.

They got upset when I suggested we donate 20 dollars to cover microwave budget for entire school for the year.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by ranger_danger on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:50PM (#29100776)
Something tells me it wasn't really about the cost. Someone just hates smelling food I bet.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by treeman79 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:36PM (#29101355)
Microwaves were in classrooms.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by passerby1 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:18PM (#29102262)
Is it a power for the sake of power example? Or does the electricity cost heaven there?
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by treeman79 on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:20AM (#29103848)
Either a power play or utter incompetence. I’m really not sure.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by EvRev on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @10:53PM (#29103206)
Sounds like a good opportunity to teach the kids about solar. The solar ovens were such a memorable experience, but I suppose the cloudy days would be tough. Teaching the kids about DC to AC conversions at the same time as office politics would be a valuable life lesson!
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by munk-a on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:06PM (#29109753)
I disagree - it sounds like a good opportunity for the school to either stop pinching pennies so absurdly or for the district to actually start funding education at a reasonable level.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by jdavis703 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:54PM (#29100127)
I checked, the top paid IT person in my local Bay Area school district makes $168,000 a year (he’s the CIO). There’s a “L4” software developer making $131,000 a year. The next highest is a DBA earning $129,000 a year. So it would appear at least my district isn’t budgeting a competitive amount for technical talent. These salaries are far below market rate, to the point that many of these people might qualify for subsidized housing.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by walrus01 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:57PM (#29100166)
> district makes $168,000 a year (he’s the CIO). There’s a “L4” software developer making $131,000 a year.

I think that really says more about the absolutely absurd cost of living and non-rational real estate costs in the SF bay area than it does about the school district. In many places with normal cost of living, if your US W2 take home is $129k a year, you can live a very comfortable upper middle class lifestyle. Whether or not you have a spouse or partner with their own career and your combined W2 gross income might be $210k a year.

Same as what I said above also applies to absurd real estate and cost of living in Seattle, Vancouver, New York, etc.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by jjeaff on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:01PM (#29101628)
Sure, and people living in Cambodia would find those salaries excessively high. But I'm not sure what your point is?

Salaries are higher in higher cost of living areas. You have to compare the salary to local living costs to be comparable.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by KronisLV on Thursday November 04, 2021 @04:50AM (#29104776)
> You have to compare the salary to local living costs to be comparable.

This is not accurate in a globalized economy, where purchasing power parity (PPP) becomes a bit of a lie. No one is going to ask you if you're from Cambodia or another country, when you'll want to rent a server from AWS, or buy an iPhone, or maybe even a car. Global corporations aren't running charities and are instead concerned with making their products profitable - if anything, they would only use your location to increase the prices of products further if you're capable of buying them, but that's not a widespread practice nowadays for a variety of reasons.

I actually wrote a bit more about it in my blog article, "On finances and savings": https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/on-finances-and-savings which showed how much money i've made over the years while working as a software developer in Latvia (currently around 18'000 euros a year), which means that my ability to make savings is ~5x lower than many of the software developers in the US or other well paid countries - which directly impacts my ability to create a startup and pay for external services/infrastructure, should i so choose.

Of course, on the flip side, one can also talk about how much you're disadvantaging yourself by catering to a clientele of local companies: i generate my company ~20x less profits than an average engineer in Google would for their company.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by jjeaff on Sunday November 07, 2021 @10:46PM (#29145964)
By local living costs, I do mean whatever costs are required to live in the area one lives. Whether or not those products or services are the same everywhere or not.

But the fact of the matter is, the costs that make up the largest portion of most people's lives are locally spent.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by cat199 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:02PM (#29102157)
True, but tech is not the dominant industry in all areas, and industries needing IT are not strictly limited to tech companies -

blaming education administrators specifically for not having enough funds to pay competitively is drastically different than saying there is a structural problem with the local economy such that only industry X can competitively source IT talent.

in these conversations, comparing tech job X vs other job Y is relevant, because we are talking about 'jobs and wages within local economy as a whole'

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by skinnymuch on Thursday November 04, 2021 @11:56PM (#29115273)
What about the many costs that stay static? Flights, smart phones, and so much more don’t become a lot cheaper just because of location. Or for flights, Departing location.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by tiahura on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:08PM (#29102194)
“ In many places with normal cost of living, if your US W2 take home is $129k a year, you can live a very comfortable upper middle class lifestyle. ”

I’m in a very reasonable market. 210 is fine, but nowhere near very comfortable upper middle class.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by ivan_gammel on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:06PM (#29100266)
Hiring DBA or a developer for a school is extremely inefficient use of the budget. School IT must be standardized and automated to the point where you only need 2 sysadmins and few more first line support people per 50-100 schools to run operations and 4-5 companies developing school management systems for the entire national market, with standardized interoperability.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by gamerDude on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:25PM (#29100476)
I work with school districts and there are these companies. And they are absolutely atrocious. And they make it difficult to transfer. So schools are somewhat stuck in the old way. Literally every district level person hates the software, but they can't change it.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by ivan_gammel on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:48PM (#29100746)
This is where government should be able to help with regulation. Nobody should be able to enter or stay on the market without ensuring interoperability, security and accessibility and without transferring certain rights to customers. I’m pretty sure the market will remain attractive for business even with the open source requirement.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by munk-a on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:04PM (#29109728)
America recently had an administration that prided itself on killing two pieces of regulation for each piece it added. There's a strong social issue with even bringing up the R word right now.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by thr0wawayf00 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:19PM (#29100403)
That standardization and automation you're talking about costs money too. Schools deal with technical debt on the IT infra level much like SaaS companies do.

Of course, you should be able to cut a $129k/yr DBA if you just spend the millions needed to streamline the IT systems.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by ivan_gammel on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:02PM (#29100938)
Simple search shows that there are 130 000 schools in the USA. Spending 10M to develop reasonable IT standards and 120M more on compliant software is just $1000 per school. And this is not a military software, it can actually be developed offshore by decent engineers earning half of that DBA salary (that is, you get 2000 _man-years_ of work for those money).
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by munk-a on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:45PM (#29100032)
In the US it looks like middle school administrators make, on average, 57k[1] - which is definitely below a sys admin cost.

1. Edit, source: https://www.zippia.com/school-administrator-jobs/salary/

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by Iefthandrule on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:17PM (#29099733)
You make it sound like no one is responsible for setting the budget and determining that a decently paid IT staff is not worth it.

It is malicious intent the whole way down.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by josephg on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:58PM (#29100893)
I don’t think it’s malicious intent. Hanlon’s razor: never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence. It’s simply that nobody at any level takes actual responsibility for outcomes. People at the bottom of the system (teachers, parents) can see problems but are usually disempowered and voiceless, and can’t fix them on their own. And people at the top are either ignorant of the real problems or lack real leadership and incentives to fix them. (Or they feel overburdened and overwhelmed).

An old friend of mine teaches the first year CS curriculum at a local university. By all reports he’s phenomenally good at his job. He truly cares and his students adore him. But he’s making a fraction of the salary he could be making in industry. At some point he’s probably going to quit to do a job he’s not as good at, and doesn’t enjoy as much. Why is he paid many times less than he’s worth? Because the university wants to pay CS lecturers who teach 2000 students the same as they pay people who teach poetry to a class of 5. So my friend can’t get a competitive salary without entire departments revolting. Who’s fault is that? I don’t believe it’s malicious intent. It’s just a boring, systematic failure high up in the org chart leading to bland mediocrity. The only people who can do something about it don’t care about outcomes enough to fix the problem.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by passerby1 on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:24PM (#29102302)
> Because the university wants to pay CS lecturers who teach 2000 students the same as they pay people who teach poetry to a class of 5.

Maybe I'm wrong, but does University gain more profit from a class of 2000 students? If so, could it be the case that your friend does not sell himself at a market price for the teaching position? Probably there's another place which pays more for similar teaching.

There's no blame at all, sometimes people like to sell their time mostly not for money, but for emotions, that's completely understandable.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by josephg on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @09:41PM (#29102768)
The university gets paid per student-year. So, yes.

But I can also see an argument that more advanced classes in later years (eg Advanced AI) are at least as valuable for the university compared to earlier subjects. They might have smaller class sizes, but if the subject material is more difficult, it'd be harder to find sufficiently knowledgable teachers. And the availability of classes like that (arguably) sets good schools apart from bad ones.

Its certainly a difficult problem. But it sounds like they aren't solving it well, and I think they're slowly driving out one of their best teachers.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by Iefthandrule on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:28PM (#29101876)
> The only people who can do something about it don’t care about outcomes enough to fix the problem.

In other words, malicious intent the whole way down. Though I'm sure it feels good to blame the faceless "bureaucracy" and leave it at that...that way no one has to take responsibility.

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by josephg on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @09:36PM (#29102748)
No, it doesn't feel good to blame a faceless bureaucracy. It makes me feel kind of powerless and awful. But I still think that description is more accurate.

Its possible we're using different definitions though. Malicious intent sounds to me like "I am glad you are underpaid because I enjoy your misery". Or "You might be suffering but I don't care." I can count on one hand the number of people I've heard about in the workplace who are like that.

On the other hand, go talk to people near the top of any medium-to-large org chart. You'll find a mountain of people who feel like they're overwhelmed by the minutia of the company's day to day concerns, and they don't have time to do strategic leadership. That they aren't meeting the demands their role is placing on them. Or they're failing the people below them in the org chart due to their own vague mediocrity.

I don't think hating people in this position helps. Your scorn isn't going to magically make them better at their jobs. I see it as a symptom of our crappy organisation structures failing at larger sizes. We habitually centralize power into the hands of a few people. And then the people at the top of the org chart are overwhelmed by choice and indecision. And the people at the bottom are knowledgable but powerless, and are structurally forbidden from solving their own problems. (Or, sadly, people develop a learned helplessness about solving problems in the organisation at all.)

Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by jedberg on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @04:29PM (#29099856)
Is it worth it though? If a few teachers have their identity stolen, will that in any way hurt the school? I mean, it should hurt them, but it's unlikely that it will. The only people who might feel bad are the moral IT folk who created the problem.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by jjeaff on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:37PM (#29101358)
I mean, is there really any risk of that anymore? Equifax had already seen to it that basically every adult in America's personal information is out there.
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by gameswithgo on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:52PM (#29101524)
americans don’t want to pay taxes, then americans complain about the quality of their infrastructure
Re:Reporter who told Missouri officials of website flaw did ... by Iefthandrule on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @07:29PM (#29101879)
It's more about Americans not wanting to hold their elected officials accountable.