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Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by lmilcin on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:36AM (#29011834)
What about people who got legit certificates but now the key it used has been revoked?
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by gpderetta on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:37AM (#29011841)
At least in UK the app will generate a new certificate on the fly.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by cwizou on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:00AM (#29012046)
It's definitely a solution when you have an app (assuming you have a 3rd party source of identification of users), but since it's a French key, a sizeable portion of people, mostly elderly, are not using the "official" app but a paper printed QR code that was given to them at the time of the second injection (or a picture of said code).

Since the French app is pretty terrible (it used to be the barely functional contact tracing app that didn't want to use Google/Apple's API, so there's a pretty strong popular stigma against it), even a sizeable portion of smartphone users use an alternative too (I personally have my QR code in Apple's Wallet, but there are other 3rd party solutions).

Depending on when that key was in use, this may be an epic bureaucratic mess to solve here in France if they have to reissue many.

Edit : I'll quickly add that while there's a database of vaccinated people handled by CNAM (the single payer social security administration), it doesn't seem extremely accurate : my best friend and one of his collegues were vaccinated, issued a QR code, but they weren't added to said database and had a terrible time getting the situation fixed. In the end, a pharmacist reissued a "vaccination" for them to "get them in the system". So that database is probably at best incomplete (for the process of reissuing).

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by distances on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:07AM (#29012113)
Does carrying just a QR code work fine for you? My experience from Germany is that nobody scans the code, they just scroll to details to see there's two vaccinations recorded. This far my QR code has only actually been scanned at the airport.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by cwizou on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:19AM (#29012232)
So I haven't had an issue yet and having the QR code is definitely sufficient in France (and always attempted to check when appropriate in my personal experience, no ID check though as that was deemed illegal).

There is however a prevalent issue with QR code scanning that I noticed twice personally (and friends reported the same experiences at other places), which is that most restaurants use a super cheap phone/tablet with a terrible camera that usually is unable to focus on a smartphone screen correctly.

Once, the person was honest about it and explained they kept having issues with it, and I tried to help him focus correctly his device (QR code size + luminosity seems to be the issue from what I saw).

The second one tried a couple of time, didn't manage to focus and told me "all ok" despite it's device not having scanned me (I could see the screen).

If I had to travel though, I'd definitely take the paper certificate on top of it, as, at least here in France, that's considered for better of for worse the source of truth.

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by pmontra on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:10AM (#29012827)
My experience in Italy is evenly split between these two cases:

1. Scan the code with the app every time.

2. Ask if I have the pass, maybe look at it once, hopefully remember me the next times.

There is also a small percentage of cases of no questions asked, ever.

By the way, I'm using a printed copy of the pass. It never runs out of battery, I don't mind if it falls on the floor when I'm using it, it works even if I'm using the phone for something else. Cons: it needs to be replaced if its key gets revoked.

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by darkwater on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:40AM (#29012500)
In Italy they scan it regularly at restaurants, at least where I'm from. And I have a UE certificate, not an italian one, and never had any complain.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by VortexDream on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:22AM (#29012257)
I've had my QR code scanned going to bars and restaurants in Germany. Works fine.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by topranks on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:39PM (#29019923)
In France it was scanned a lot when I was there in August.

In Ireland it’s hit and miss. About 60% of the time had to produce it, but very few places want to see ID as well, which is needed to prevent people just using someone else’s pass.

I’m all for it so I’d love to see better enforcement.

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by mgraupner on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:57AM (#29012710)
Same for me, everybody touches my phone to scroll down the screen, nobody scans it. Way to handle a pandemic...
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by nicoburns on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:17AM (#29012903)
> Since the French app is pretty terrible (it used to be the barely functional contact tracing app that didn't want to use Google/Apple's API, so there's a pretty strong popular stigma against it)

Yeah the UK very wisely put the passports and the contract tracing in separate apps (helps that the NHS already had an app pre-pandemic). Not sure if it was intentional, but it certainly sidesteps this issue!

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by m-p-3 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:12AM (#29012856)
There is no pretty way to fix that, anything signed by a revoked key automatically becomes invalid.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by topranks on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:38PM (#29019913)
I was on holiday in France and imported my Irish code to the French app. Found it real easy to use.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by Aachen on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:41AM (#29011875)
So it also automatically resigns the forged certs, or how does it tell the difference?
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by jonathanstrange on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:44AM (#29012542)
It tells the difference by looking up the test results in a database. At least that's how it works in Portugal. You can also use the app to look up other health related information.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by gpderetta on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:01AM (#29012755)
As far as I understand, it connect to some NHS server and after authentication it fetches a certificate that has been signed by the server.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by cm2187 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:44AM (#29011899)
Don't know for covid passport (since it is not enforced in the UK), but for travel certificates I believe the QR code has a validity of 3 months.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by secondcoming on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:43AM (#29012537)
The covid passport is enforced in Scotland.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by lmilcin on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:40AM (#29011866)
I am not using an app. I am not installing any third party apps on my phone, government or not, period.

The certificate I am using is printed on a piece of paper I carry with me.

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by Aachen on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:43AM (#29011897)
Similar here. I use the app since it doesn't do anything invasive, but I also have a paper backup (I don't always carry it) because it's a bit too important to be dependent on a phone only. I bet I'd first find out about my certificate being revoked at some check point where my phone isn't working and I can't easily get a new one...
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by gpderetta on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:42AM (#29011881)
well, print it again then.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by lmilcin on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:47AM (#29011927)
I know this, but a lot of people may not know because they don't care to read HN. Then they try to board a plane and get rejected.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by gpderetta on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:16AM (#29012203)
to be fair, yes, you are right, it is going to be a pain for a lot of people.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by bilekas on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:53AM (#29011975)
> not installing any third party apps on my phone

Just out of curiosity, is that for privacy reasons or ? Seems rather strange for a smartphone ?

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by GoblinSlayer on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:00AM (#29012038)
Can't you keep it in a jpeg file and show that?
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by TacticalCoder on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:04AM (#29012092)
You can do both. In addition to these two methods I also have a print of that QR code in my car.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by ben_w on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:51AM (#29011954)
In general? Or just COVID apps?
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by nyxaiur on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:37AM (#29011844)
It doesn't matter because the key was used to sign before it got revoked. You should know this on a site like hackernews.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by roblabla on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:41AM (#29011873)
Please don't belittle people for not knowing things like this, it's entirely rude and unnecessary. See https://xkcd.com/1053/
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by lmilcin on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:44AM (#29011900)
It is also wrong for one other funny reason. I have been a security officer for a credit card acquiring business and have been designing cryptographic infrastructure for credit card payment systems. I have also implemented a complete credit card terminal application with magstripe, chip&pin and contactless. I know (or at least known at some point in time) pretty much everything practical there is to know about certificates and I have even been able to parse TLV of X.509 by looking at the hex dump of it.

So that was pretty poor shot at me.

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by tomjen3 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:48AM (#29011937)
Not only is that comment arrogant, spiteful but it is also not necessarily correct.
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by cm2187 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:42AM (#29011890)
What prevents you from backdating a forged certificate then?
Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by roblabla on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:46AM (#29011916)
I'm not aware of how the COVID certs work, but the way that's solved in TLS certificates (used for https) is that when signing, you have to use an approved timestamping authority. A timestamping authority will basically say "Yes, this action was taken at exactly this time". See [0].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by tialaramex on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:03AM (#29012776)
Timestamping does exist but it isn't used in the Web PKI (what you're calling "TLS certificates")

Both backdating and forward dating have been done in the Web PKI for various reasons, both legitimate (e.g. historically if you couldn't randomise serial numbers enough it was acceptable to randomise the notBefore time parameters slightly, this is no longer allowed) and illegitimate (we have pretty good circumstantial evidence that StartCom issued SHA-1 certificates long after such issuance was forbidden, probably for $$$ from companies that realised they should have bought one before the cut-off) but there is no inclination to insist upon timestamping to try to prevent that.

The most likely place you'll see timestamping in arguably publicly trusted certificates is code signing.

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by av8avenger on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:37AM (#29013130)
Something that is currently being used (sort of widely) is X509 OCSP. As the Cert gets signed, the CA also embeds an OCSP URL which clients can later use on the fly to determine if a cert is revoked.

In case of a leaked private key where the actual PKI wasn't breached, they still have authority over the CA itself and can therefore determine which certs are valid and which are fake.

This retains validity of the known issued certificates, but invalidates fraudulently issued certificates. The downside is that its an optional check and that every client needs an online connection in order to validate the cert.

Anyway, the COVID certificates don't seem to be actual X.509 certificates and are rather just a signed message, so this isn't something that could be utilized right now.

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by tialaramex on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:44AM (#29013951)
> In case of a leaked private key where the actual PKI wasn't breached, they still have authority over the CA itself and can therefore determine which certs are valid and which are fake.

In a very important sense the private key is the CA.

The OCSP responses are not encrypted (you'll notice that URL you mentioned is HTTP, you can't use HTTPS for this) but they are signed documents. They're signed by the issuer using its Private Key.

So, somebody who has the Private Key can mint bogus OCSP responses signed with that key too.

The recovery from losing a signing key is to revoke the entire tree under that key. This will usually involve pushing out software changes e.g. a Firefox or Chrome gets fresh data from the vendor saying "This CA is no longer trustworthy, disregard it".

This disaster scenario is why the root keys aren't (must not be) online. If you break into the computer systems of a famous but competent CA and seize total control of everything, you could perhaps (it should be difficult because they're using HSMs but if you've really got control of everything it may be possible) steal the private keys for the online intermediates. But their root is physically locked in somebody's safe, so, you can't steal that by this route for the same reason you can't steal gold bars from Fort Knox by hacking the Pentagon's web site.

Re:Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate mi... by stavros on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:00AM (#29012040)
It matters to the people whose true certificate is now invalid, which is probably what the GP meant.