News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by fireball_blaze on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:41AM (#28988339)
What % of web users surf the web without JS turned on? (Honest question, I don't know.)

And if this % is very tiny, does it make sense for devs to devote time developing an experience for this rare edge case?

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by hyproxia on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:44AM (#28988371)
Here's another way of looking at it: Does this page really need to execute code on its users' machines? Why is this such an acceptable thing in the first place?
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by Someone1234 on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:55AM (#28988501)
> Why is this such an acceptable thing in the first place?

Because before we had local desktop applications that were substantially less secure, with far greater default access rights (even root/admin in many cases).

Webapps that execute in a silo-ed virtual machine with only access to their own data (without express permissions), is a substantial security improvement (and also doesn't require the user to install anything).

To be honest the people who want to visit a website, for free, and then insist on how that website is delivered are super entitled. If you don't want to execute a site's code in a browser's secure context then don't, but you cannot whine about it like they owe you.

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by ClumsyPilot on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:20AM (#28988805)
"To be honest the people who want to visit a website, for free, and then insist on how that website is delivered are super entitled."

This is a very poor argumnet - stealing data is a crime.

Why should people accept being victims of robbery just because they are in a free library or music concert?

Secondly, many websites have a paid plan - OneDrive, Xero, Flikr, LinkedIn, YouTube, etc. This is a terrible attitude: "I gave you candy for free, so don't complain if it's poisoned"

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by lazide on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:50AM (#28989187)
That’s a bit warped of a comparison - 99% plus of website JS isn’t a poisoned Apple that will cause some kind of real harm.

That (in your analogy) everyone giving candy on Halloween provides a potential threat vector for a serial killer to occasional slip one in is them taking advantage of an ecosystem that everyone desires, not a malicious act from everyone giving out candy.

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by hyproxia on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:58AM (#28988554)
>for free

No, the site owner is usually gaining money from his users (through ads, tracking, etc). This is an incredibly dishonest statement.

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by Someone1234 on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:00AM (#28988585)
> No, the site owner is usually gaining money from his users (through ads, tracking, etc). This is an incredibly dishonest statement.

Which you're purposely trying to avoid by disabling JavaScript, thus mooching and demanding that they design the site around your niche desires.

NoJs users are negative revenue users. They cost the same as a revenue user but block revenue streams. Then feel like more resources should be spent on just them.

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by cudgy on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:10AM (#28988668)
Why is Javascript required to show an ad? Embed the ad in the content.
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by Someone1234 on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:19AM (#28988785)
> Embed the ad in the content.

You're then asking businesses to pay to place ads that you cannot assure them were actually viewed by anyone. It can work, but companies will pay more for ads that can prove they were even rendered let alone uniquely.

Many business models don't work with reduced revenues, thus you can embed ads in content, take the lower revenue, but then need to structure your business around the lower total revenue.

Typically, when businesses have goals like these they end up instead just doing a membership model wherein it is ad-less but the users/audience is paying them directly for content production.

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by yehaaa on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:29AM (#28988930)
If the ad is an image and it’s been fetched from the server then it’s reasonable to assume it’s been viewed no?
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by lazide on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:51AM (#28989212)
Generally no, as botnets can and do trivially spoof that kind of activity to burn competitors ad budgets or generate more revenue for the ad networks or websites.
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by darkcha0s on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:48AM (#28988429)
Because lots of information is easier to take in with animation and ease of use features vs. staring at a wall of text.
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by mixedCase on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:53AM (#28988477)
I agree. There are some mediums such as interactive diagrams that greatly facilitate learning some kinds of information.

None of that applies to this page, nor `99.${"9".repeat(n)}%` of articles posted including this one.

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by Someone1234 on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:59AM (#28988564)
> None of that applies to this page

It is a podcast with a JavaScript audio-player being the main purpose of the page...

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by hyproxia on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:07AM (#28988645)
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by cyberbanjo on Monday October 25, 2021 @12:15PM (#28989553)
The transcript page which is just text also requires it
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by Xelbair on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:51AM (#28988452)
but then how the pure wall of text does not display on some of those sites if JS is turned off?

Surely you don't need it to just display text?

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by andreasley on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:53AM (#28988463)
Everything on that page (except for the audio player) can be done with simple HTML and CSS.
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by ls15 on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:01AM (#28988590)
Audio players can be done with HTML
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by seba_dos1 on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:23AM (#28988847)
Yes, it does. Not using JavaScript to present documents is the default, you actually need to devote time to make it the other way. Relying on JavaScript significantly increases your failure surface. Outdated browsers, buggy extensions, network failures, poor error handling - it becomes much more likely for your content to not display even when the user does not actually turn JavaScript off.
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by smhenderson on Monday October 25, 2021 @12:19PM (#28989597)
I'm not sure what the ratio is. What I do know is that there is a concept that, to me used to be a well known concept, that web developer's are encouraged to follow called "graceful degradation". I wish more people would pay it some attention.

Whether it's due to capabilities of a browser or extra security measures a user would like to practice graceful degradation allows content to be shared with more people than not.

https://www.w3.org/wiki/Graceful_degradation_versus_progress...

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by brightball on Monday October 25, 2021 @12:21PM (#28989635)
Huge advocate. Makes life easier for screen readers too.
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by tut-urut-utut on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:51AM (#28989201)
I have JS enabled, but don't allow third-party JS.

Sorry, for the author, but I'm not going to enable google-apis and other google spyware scripts to load on my browser just to see what they're up to in this blog post.

As someone who supposedly wrote an article about fighting spyware, they should know better that to require loading google scripts in order to see a simple page.

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by nabilhat on Monday October 25, 2021 @12:09PM (#28989473)
A better question is, what % of web developers test their JS rendering on the array of browsers it's guaranteed to encounter, or consider what happens when very basic privacy tools are in use?

Those aren't relevant questions for this case, however. The page isn't failing to render without JS, it's failing to render without third party JS. For a group whose nominal message is bragging about their hax0r skills, it's pretty clumsy to build in a single point of fail dependency on code they don't control, then require their users to run it.

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by jjgreen on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:46AM (#28989137)
No idea, but I browse without js (enabled on a case-by-case basis). I'd say 10-15% of the links from the HN front-page are broken without js, I generally move on to the next one.
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by cmeacham98 on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:47AM (#28988408)
Anecdotally, based on my own data, roughly 0.2% to 0.3% after excluding bot/crawler UAs (and I run a website more likely to be visited by "techy" users, probably lower for the general population).
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by turminal on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:54AM (#28989265)
Static content is static by default. It only becomes JS dependent if someone makes it JS dependent.
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by WorkLobster on Monday October 25, 2021 @12:58PM (#28990160)
Just a note that you've framed the question as "without JS turned on" but it's not always a choice; there are people who don't have access to sufficiently new hardware or reliable telecoms that it will work as intended.

As an example, for the past ten years I have had to browse with a tablet that crashed every time JS was enabled (luckily I could recently justify the expense of a new one, so that won't be the case any more when it arrives)

Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by Wistar on Monday October 25, 2021 @12:45PM (#28989979)
Me, for one. I always use NoScipt. and although it can be a hassle, I am willing to bet that it has saved me some anguish over the years.
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by ryantgtg on Monday October 25, 2021 @02:30PM (#28991382)
I have JS turned on on my phone, yet this website did not render. I am using content blockers, yet there are no trackers on this site so I’m not sure what exactly is being blocked!
Re:Being spied on by the makers of Pegasus, then lured them ... by vbezhenar on Monday October 25, 2021 @12:39PM (#28989898)
Would you apply this reasoning to Firefox support?