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Re:Leaving Google by capableweb on Saturday October 23, 2021 @04:12AM (#28966615)
No, Google would easily survive if they focused on maintaing existing services and making the headcount stable instead of increasing.

Most businesses in the world survive with their piece of the pie and remaining having the same profits or slightly lower/higher than previous years. You don't disappear over night, and no market is really a "winner takes it all", it's just what management wants you to believe so you fight the good fight for your company.

Re:Leaving Google by mehrdada on Saturday October 23, 2021 @04:48AM (#28966755)
Sure, but the stock price would tank (note that the current multiple assumes growth), employees would leave due to poor compensation, and starts a downward spiral.

I am not sure if that is called survival.

And no, most businesses in the world do not survive that long. Lifetime of businesses are often much shorter than lifetime of humans. Even many of them that look like have survived may share the name only and are effectively new businesses.

Re:Leaving Google by mbesto on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:32AM (#28968235)
This is what people seem to forget. A company that doesn't grow for all intents and purposes is a dead company. Or in the M&A world we call it "distressed". It doesn't matter how profitable you are if you don't get grow there are serious implications - employee motivation, loss of talent, erosion of customer services, etc.
Re:Leaving Google by discordance on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:55AM (#28968517)
I don't see how employee motivation, loss of talent, erosion of customer services are related to the need for unyielding year on year growth.

There are companies out there, private ones, where their customers are happy, their employees are happy (most of the time) and their retention is high.

Re:Leaving Google by burntoutfire on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:23AM (#28968802)
Without growth, the only way to get promoted is to get a spot of some higher-up who left the company (or retired/died). Whereas, in growing companies, there are new senior/management positions created all the time, to account for the growth - so, getting promoted is easier.

Ambitious, hard working people like promotions, so they gravitate towards growing companies and not stale companies.

Re:Leaving Google by DubiousPusher on Saturday October 23, 2021 @11:43AM (#28969516)
> Ambitious, hard working people like promotions

Ambitious maybe (though that's nearly the definition of ambitious). Hardworking, not necessarily. I know a cement guy that you have never in your life worked a harder day than who has never received a promotion nor even sought one.

Re:Leaving Google by crgwbr on Sunday October 24, 2021 @01:38PM (#28980166)
Ambition and hard work are hardly the same thing. Many people work hard at their job, are paid a good wage, and are satisfied with their job, rather than constantly seeking a promotion. Constant promotion seeking isn’t admirable, it’s just greed.
Re:Leaving Google by royce on Sunday October 24, 2021 @02:15PM (#28980511)
Am I the only one who thinks this sounds a lot like how pyramid schemes work?
Re:Leaving Google by da39a3ee on Saturday October 23, 2021 @02:46PM (#28971159)
So is there anything to be done about it? How to avoid companies being compelled to seek growth always, to the detriment of their internal functioning/culture?
Re:Leaving Google by jleyank on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:42PM (#28971581)
As far as I can tell, don’t go public or be a regulated utility.
Re:Leaving Google by mbesto on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:33AM (#28968896)
> There are companies out there, private ones, where their customers are happy, their employees are happy (most of the time) and their retention is high.

Companies that aren't growing? I meet A LOT of companies (about ~50 or so a year) and I can tell you there is massive difference between the distressed ones and the ones who are growing. btw - even 2~5% growth is fine, it doesn't need to be 25% google scale growth...but flat or declining is bad.

Re:Leaving Google by ghaff on Saturday October 23, 2021 @11:33AM (#28969446)
There are plenty of small private companies that more or less plod along year after year--small consultancies and the like. You're not going to have the level of compensation and opportunities you have at a large profitable growing public firm but you may be OK with that. Obviously declines are bad and, in any case, compensation will probably be a fraction of Google etc.
Re:Leaving Google by Lamad123 on Monday October 25, 2021 @08:07AM (#28986862)
I hate how hn top threads usually degenerate into something totally unrelated to the original posts.
Re:Leaving Google by spfzero on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:19PM (#28971370)
It's about stock price and bonuses, in public companies. The only metric that a board of directors can use is stockholder welfare. That's their primary fiduciary duty, according to law these days.

So, what to bonus the CEO on? Stock price appreciation. Stock price valuation loves growth. So even though a flat business throwing off 10% profit is a very nice business to be in, the only way you can increase stock price is to grow margin, which is really hard and attracts competition. Ergo, CEO is going to try to grow the company to boost the stock price. That's one reason dubious mergers are pursued, as it at least will goose revenue and profit. Wise investors might use return on equity or capital as well, but the market in general biases towards the revenue and profit metrics. Stock goes up, CEO gets their bonus.

For a private company, slow or flat growth with a nice profit margin is great, and without having to favor growth at all costs for pesky stockholders and analysts, you can pick and choose when a good opportunity comes along, and grow a bit anyway.

Re:Leaving Google by prox on Saturday October 23, 2021 @02:05PM (#28970841)
This seems like a popular and reflective comment, but this is a very cultural idea in my amateur opinion. It seems like this -needs- to be so, and many do so because of that belief. But in reality it is a self perpetuating hamster wheel of burn out bliss a company is setting itself up for.
Re:Leaving Google by beambot on Saturday October 23, 2021 @02:36PM (#28971078)
It's not cultural at all -- it's economics.

Businesses are valued based on discounted cash flows (DCF). If you're profitable and not growing, your cash flows are very stable & easy to evaluate -- you get a low P/E or P/E/G ratio. But if you're growing quickly with sane unit economics, most of the DCF value is in future years... which then results in much higher multiples relative to today's revenues & earnings.

Re:Leaving Google by Terretta on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:07PM (#28971302)
So? Who needs that?

Not the company, unless selling stock to raise cash.

Not the employees, if paid in cash instead of funny money.

Nobody needs that.

It's cultural.

Re:Leaving Google by lotsofpulp on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:23PM (#28971416)
Politician wins election by promising lower taxes by assuming greater investment returns hence requiring less money to be set aside for defined benefit pensions.

People see other people’s wealth growing quicker because their investments grew more, increasing demand for higher growth investments.

Population growth inherently leads to economic growth assuming a sufficiently stable society and access to resources.

All of these create an environment where people expect certain ROI and make plans according to those ROI.

Re:Leaving Google by da39a3ee on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:03PM (#28971269)
So is there anything to be done about this? It seems from this thread that the conclusion is that companies cannot avoid constantly seeking growth, and yet that growth ultimately destroys internal social mechanics / culture.
Re:Leaving Google by prox on Saturday October 23, 2021 @07:11PM (#28973293)
It can only not avoid it because that’s how the deck is stacked. Different rulesets would give different outcomes. Just because we are riding one certain economic theory, does not mean its the only way of value creation.
Re:Leaving Google by nuerow on Saturday October 23, 2021 @07:04AM (#28967327)
> Sure, but the stock price would tank (note that the current multiple assumes growth), employees would leave due to poor compensation, and starts a downward spiral.

This assertion presumes that it is impossible to propose any form of compensation that's enticing without involving stock. This is not only baseless but also flies in the face of reality, as other tech companies, including other FAANGs, barely offer any stock and still manage to attract top talent.

Re:Leaving Google by mehrdada on Saturday October 23, 2021 @01:30PM (#28970512)
You could pay them in other means, but there were constraints there are obvious constraints that I did not spell out. We are assuming a non-growing company that now needs to pay extra cash to you top up employee comp with cash. Your margin will start to shrink, and so does your earnings (the premise was no growth, remember), continuing the downward trend of your stock.

Plus, your competitors are not sitting still. People will go work for the more exciting companies even if you pay them equal amounts anyway (to vary their type of work and grow their careers) rather than staying and watching the thing die and doing the same thing for 30 years.

Re:Leaving Google by gregorygoc on Saturday October 23, 2021 @07:28AM (#28967444)
> This is not only baseless but also flies in the face of reality, as other tech companies, including other FAANGs, barely offer any stock and still manage to attract top talent.

Which one?

Re:Leaving Google by jw_mc on Saturday October 23, 2021 @07:50AM (#28967558)
Netflix is known for having all-cash offers.
Re:Leaving Google by saagarjha on Saturday October 23, 2021 @08:29AM (#28967785)
Netflix is pretty much the only FAANG that does that. Every other large tech company has generous stock grants, and as you pass a couple years of experience your stock will generally be larger than your cash compensation.
Re:Leaving Google by Sebb767 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:24AM (#28968155)
> Netflix is pretty much the only FAANG that does that.

Netflix is also 20% of FAANG companies, so that's not as lonely as it sounds.

Re:Leaving Google by lotsofpulp on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:39AM (#28968309)
In the context of this discussion, it is more useful for FAANG to mean any tech company or tech adjacent company employing a lot of software engineers with comparatively high pay, in the form of cash or cash + stock.
Re:Leaving Google by saagarjha on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:27AM (#28968182)
Right, but they're a strange company that just happens to be in FAANG. Pretty much every other large company, in the FAANG acronym or not, will give you equity.
Re:Leaving Google by MrPatan on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:04PM (#28971284)
Netflix is in FAANG only to make the acronym nicer
Re:Leaving Google by caoilte on Saturday October 23, 2021 @07:48AM (#28967548)
They could achieve good multiples by paying dividends. The question is whether they're wasting as much money trying to grow as they are saving by keeping their profits offshore (and not paying tax on them). I don't know, but at some point the answer may become obvious.
Re:Leaving Google by lotsofpulp on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:08AM (#28968030)
Owners do not want dividends. I do not want dividends from my tech stocks if I’m simply going to turn around and reinvest in them. That is just paying extra short term capital gains taxes when you do not have to.
Re:Leaving Google by sokoloff on Saturday October 23, 2021 @11:04AM (#28969184)
Qualified dividends (which represent the vast majority of them) are taxed as long-term capital gains to avoid this concern.
Re:Leaving Google by lotsofpulp on Saturday October 23, 2021 @01:20PM (#28970434)
True, but it does not seem like investors are clamoring for dividends either way. Personally, I would just take the dividend money and reinvest it so it’s all the same to me.
Re:Leaving Google by hadlock on Saturday October 23, 2021 @06:10AM (#28967095)
If the stock price went down, they would just pay employees in cash, which is a slightly less tax-advantaged solution.
Re:Leaving Google by superdude12 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @08:38AM (#28967836)
How are RSUs tax advantaged?
Re:Leaving Google by SOLAR_FIELDS on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:28AM (#28968187)
The award is taxed at the same rate, but theoretically (in the States, at least) you can hold them for a year after they vest and only pay the much lower long term tax on the appreciation of their value. In order to easily compare apples to apples this assumes that in the alternative to getting RSU's that you would actually get compensated more income instead in proportion to the value increase of the company. An equivalent would probably be to compare a cash bonus that is directly tied to the value of the stock vs the equivalent gain in RSU. All else being equal, the RSU gain is more tax advantageous if you have held the RSU for a year or longer before liquidating the position.
Re:Leaving Google by lotsofpulp on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:35AM (#28968266)
That is not a tax advantage. It is simply paying long term capital gains tax rate on long term capital gains.

Companies are not paying with RSUs because of a tax advantage, they are paying because it is cheaper than paying with cash.

Re:Leaving Google by SOLAR_FIELDS on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:51AM (#28968461)
While it's unclear whether grandparent was referring to tax advantages for the company vs. the individual, I'm not sure I understand your comment about lack of tax advantage in the context of individual awards.

Scenario A: Company X gives me a sign-on bonus of $10,000 and an agreement to bonus me $100 * y%, where y is the increase in value of the company.

Scenario B: Company X awards me $10,000 of RSU that vests after 1 year.

Let's say I'm in the highest bracket, $523,601 or more in income. The tax rate for that bracket for 2021 is 37%.

After 1 year, the stock price goes up 100%.

In Scenario A, I have vested RSU's worth $20,000. If I sell $10,000 of that (the gains only), I pay short term capital gains equivalent to my tax bracket, or $3700. If I hold that stock for 1 year after vesting and the stock price stays exact same for the next year, I pay the long term rate of the highest bracket which is currently 20%, or $2,000.

In Scenario B, I get a bonus of $10,000 just the same, but there is no situation where I'm not stuck with paying $3,700 on that $10,000 gain. In Scenario A, I can save almost 50% of the tax bill by holding it for a year.

Re:Leaving Google by dasil003 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:36AM (#28968920)
RSUs are cash equivalent from tax purposes. They are taxed at market rate at vest time. If you sell at that moment and buy other stock it has the exact same LTCG treatment. It’s also the same as if you are compensated in all cash and go buy stock with that.
Re:Leaving Google by erik_seaberg on Sunday October 24, 2021 @12:08AM (#28974892)
It’s like cash if you got more when the share price is higher.

It can also be a cash flow problem if you have to cover quarterly estimated tax in between trading windows. My day job sells and withholds 22% of my vesting RSUs, because that’s the statutory rate for supplemental wages, but I always owe about 10% more.

Re:Leaving Google by candybar on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:17AM (#28968760)
This isn't how things work - you pay income taxes on RSUs when they vest, not when you sell, and their cost basis is the price at the time of vesting. So it's entirely irrelevant from a tax perspective whether they come in cash or stock. If you want cash, you can sell the stock and if you want stock, you can buy - the tax consequences are exactly the same.
Re:Leaving Google by lotsofpulp on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:40AM (#28968957)
There is no tax advantage for the employer or the employee. Your scenario A is incorrect because you pay income tax at time of vesting, as the other comments pointed out.
Re:Leaving Google by abdabab on Saturday October 23, 2021 @05:08AM (#28966840)
> employees would leave due to poor compensation

With a gross profit of 100 billion dollars a year [1] they can easily outbid the market compensation if they want to and stay with current revenue. But again how many Jeff Deans can one company need before it calls itself The Man?

[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/GOOG/alphabet/gros...

Re:Leaving Google by lotsofpulp on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:22AM (#28968149)
Why would gross profit be the relevant metric here and not net profit?
Re:Leaving Google by abdabab on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:40PM (#28971569)
You’re right. 63 billion dollars of net profit per year is a better metric.
Re:Leaving Google by 8note on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:46PM (#28971614)
You could compensate the employees with things other than stock
Re:Leaving Google by burntoutfire on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:16AM (#28968744)
> and no market is really a "winner takes it all"

Market for OSes for PCs (not Macs) is a great example. Windows has what, 98% market share there? It got there thanks to the dynamics of this particular market, which is totally a "winner takes all" one. In particular, if Microsoft were more relaxed in 80ties and 90ties, there likely would not be Microsoft or Windows at all today, and everybody'd be using Os/2 Warp or BeOS or something else on our PCs.

Re:Leaving Google by im3w1l on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:34AM (#28968900)
> OSes for PCs (not Macs)

If you slice the market thin enough anything can be a monopoly. This particular distinction seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Re:Leaving Google by erik_seaberg on Sunday October 24, 2021 @12:14AM (#28974917)
You could buy a computer with MacOS installed. You almost couldn’t buy a computer with OS/2 or BeOS installed, because Microsoft would threaten your OEM with a punitive price hike for Windows licenses the majority expect.
Re:Leaving Google by ghaff on Saturday October 23, 2021 @11:43AM (#28969527)
I agree but even if you throw Macs in there, the Windows marketshare is probably still over 90%. Maybe a bit lower if you include Chromebooks too.
Re:Leaving Google by burntoutfire on Sunday October 24, 2021 @05:41AM (#28976295)
There are billions of PCs in the world, it's hardly a thin slice.
Re:Leaving Google by gotmedium on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:36AM (#28968285)
>most business in the world survive

While this may be the case for capital-intensive businesses (oil, consumer goods, energy), this is usually not the case for intangible-asset businesses (media, tech). In the former, the assets will generate cashflow, whereas in the latter it's a people-centric model

What was the last time you chose yahoo over google or altavista over google?

Google was always greedy, but when it was small it was cool to be the disruptor. Now it's perceived as only greedy. This is typically the case for any successful company (from HP, IBM, to the new 'big tech').

Good (related) book recommendation btw: capitalism without capital

Re:Leaving Google by emsy on Saturday October 23, 2021 @08:59AM (#28967970)
According to Peter Thiel, Google is a de-facto monopoly in search-engines and online advertising (apart from social media). I think that's an accurate take. They are in this position because of their "winner takes it all" attitude. So to say they would "easily survive" is short sighted as well as ignoring where Google came from.
Re:Leaving Google by sockpuppet_12 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @06:24AM (#28967135)
> Maintaining existing services

Everything a capitalist market teaches us is against this, if they don't obsolete themselves before somebody else can then they will fall into obscurity and ultimately lose what they've built, just like other companies before it who didn't.

FAANGS companies aren't at fault for when they're winning a game which is rigged from the start.

Re:Leaving Google by kcartlidge on Sunday October 24, 2021 @05:11AM (#28976134)
> if they don't obsolete themselves before somebody else can then they will fall into obscurity and ultimately lose what they've built, just like other companies before it who didn't

And if they do fall into obscurity and ultimately lose what they've built?

- The companies who take their place service the customers/clients they used to have

- The workforce either coast along or move to the (presumably growing) new big boys

- The investors should spot the decline and trade away

The only downside is the company - the brand - slowly dies off. For most of us that is fine; the only parties to all this who will actually lose out are the ultimate beneficiaries/owners, and I can live with that. And presumably they've extracted masses from the company by then anyway.

Its both cultural and economics, but the economics only affect the masters and not the minions (who find alternatives) and the cultural aspect is misguided - individual companies/brands are ephemeral and irrelevant so we the minions should not be invested in protecting them at the destructive (to society) costs of scale.

Re:Leaving Google by drclau on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:58AM (#28969127)
> No, Google would easily survive if they focused on maintaing existing services and making the headcount stable instead of increasing.

No such thing. In capitalism you are either growing or dying. Stagnation means others will grow around you, and relative to them you are shrinking in the same market. Thus, stagnating == dying.