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Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by lifeisstillgood on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:36PM (#28936135)
I don't think it works like that.

There seems to be a need for a minimum primary settler population and a decent amount of native assistance- it's fairly easy to build a new town 10 miles from your last but I am not aware of any long distance unsupported settlers.

So if the natives around the Mayflower had all died, so would the Founding Fathers. If the Norse diseases had killed off the locals they might not have made it through winter.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by adolph on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:06PM (#28938020)
Some interpretations of the socio-political context of what is now New England see tribes more affected by disease presumably spread by earlier European contact as aiding incoming Europeans in order to ward off other tribes.

The Narragansetts were the most powerful tribe in the southern area of the region when the English colonists arrived in 1620, and they had not been affected by the epidemics. Chief Massasoit of the Wampanoags to the east allied with the colonists at Plymouth Colony as a way to protect the Wampanoags from Narragansett attacks. In the fall of 1621, the Narragansetts sent a sheaf of arrows wrapped in a snakeskin to Plymouth Colony as a threatening challenge, but Plymouth governor William Bradford sent the snakeskin back filled with gunpowder and bullets. The Narragansetts understood the message and did not attack them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narragansett_people

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by eesmith on Thursday October 21, 2021 @06:08AM (#28942430)
> long distance unsupported settlers

There were 18 years between the European settlement of Pitcairn island and the next visitors - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands#European_sett... .

Your constraints are pretty strict. There aren't many places which could be settled (in recorded history) where there weren't already people living there, and where there was a reason for not continuing contact with the place of origin.

Another possibility is Te Pito O Te Kainga / Rapa Nui / Easter Island. The first explorers met one person already there (Nga Tavake), then they go back to Hiva, and a double canoe returns to Easter Island carrying the settlers. They left "because a rising tide was destroying their land" and/or a power struggle with the Hanau Eepe, if I read http://archive.hokulea.com/rapanui/hotu.html correctly. In either case, the oral history suggest little continued connection with Hiva.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by vintermann on Thursday October 21, 2021 @03:37AM (#28941494)
I agree with this. It's about economic and social support. Leif Eriksson was the son of the notorious murderer Eric the Red. Eric was twice outcast, first from Norway to Iceland, then from Iceland to Greenland. On top of that, Leif was an enthusiastic convert to Christianity, which somewhat alienated him from his still pagan father. They lived on a fringe of a fringe of the European economic, cultural and religious community. They didn't even really have the economic support to sustain a settlement on Greenland (where they were more by necessity than opportunity, due to Eric's crimes), let alone Nova Scotia.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by BurningFrog on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:02PM (#28938511)
This is very far from my expertise, but surely you can also live off the land?

Hunting and fishing shouldn't be very different in Newfoundland compared to Norway/Iceland. Bring a few chickens along, and you have another food source.

I assume/guess the vikings were better at this stuff than the Mayflower crowd.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by vintermann on Thursday October 21, 2021 @03:52AM (#28941594)
They didn't want to live like that. It's one of the things Jared Diamond argues in Collapse: sure, they could have survived longer in Greenland if they adopted more of the customs of the Inuit, but this went against everything they considered important and valuable in life. They wouldn't be themselves any more if they did (and for all we know, a few of them may have been assimilated into the native population and stopped being Norse in any sense recognizable to us).

Not least of all, Leif Eriksson was a Christian, a Catholic in modern terms. It's reasonable to assume most of his followers were, too. He had gained the epithet "the lucky" due to his habit of coming across and rescuing castaways at sea. To the Norse, luck was evidence the cosmos was on your side, and one of the most important attributes a leader offered to potential followers was a share in this cosmic luck. This probably helped Leif the missionary securing a lot of conversions!

But the heart of Christianity at the time was in Rome. They were already profoundly cut off from the mystical fellowship of believers, the communion. How much worse wouldn't it be for their sense of self if they were not only to go off in an impossibly distant land, but to live as the savages there?

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:21AM (#28985903)
I think you're giving the connection to Rome too much weight. Consider: [ ] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansgar
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by vintermann on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:07AM (#28997648)
I don't quite understand. Ansgar was quite connected to Rome, as much as you would expect from a missionary in a foreign country. There was, as I understand it, correspondence between Ansgar and the pope, at the very least there had to be a letter appointing him as bishop. Think of how much harder it would have been to send a letter from Vinland.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by s1artibartfast on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:18PM (#28938628)
Simply put, living off the land is HARD, even with an established settlement and some trade, mass starvation is a pretty likely outcome.

Reality is more complex and challenging than Farmville or AnimalCrossing.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by PeterisP on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @11:50PM (#28940003)
I'm just wondering why the same process how vikings settled Greenland would not work in the (IMHO much more hospitable) North America.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by jcranmer on Thursday October 21, 2021 @12:59AM (#28940463)
That's an excellent question. The answer I would give is that the process by which the Norse settled Greenland did not actually ultimately work out in the first place. Colonization isn't a simple matter of gathering enough people to form a colonizing party, staking out an empty(-ish) piece of land, and building a new settlement there. Once that settlement is built, there needs to be a steady stream of consumable goods being provided, and until the new settlement can produce or trade for those goods on its own right, the colonizers are effectively subsidizing that settlement.

The settlements in Greenland never really reached that point. The leading hypothesis at this point for why Greenland collapsed was that the Arctic trade routes dropped far-off Greenland from their destinations--and without that trade, the settlements couldn't sustain themselves and collapsed. Newfoundland may be a more hospitable place than Greenland, but from a trade situation, it's even worse: it's not offering any trade goods to Europeans that Greenland or Iceland could be providing (at much shorter journeys), but it's still probably not able to tap into the North American trade network--I think you have to make it to Nova Scotia or New Brunswick to do that.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by BurningFrog on Thursday October 21, 2021 @09:37AM (#28944151)
The Greenland settlements had 2000+ people between 1000-1350. Last written record is from 1408.

Ten generations is completely sustainable by my standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland#Norse_set...

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by runarberg on Thursday October 21, 2021 @12:30PM (#28946949)
Stories of Norse Greenlanders visiting Iceland mention their poverty. They would come to Iceland and taste beer and bread for the first time in their lives. They lived, yes, but they definitely did not thrive over there. Perhaps they were sustainable, but they were on the very edge of being so, and when conditions worsened (worse climate, lost trade routes, competition, etc.), they weren’t any more and these settlements were abandoned.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by vintermann on Thursday October 21, 2021 @03:57AM (#28941627)
The Norse mostly settled Greenland because they had to, not because it was such a great place to be. It was a frontier, settled by desperate people. Leif's father, the chieftain Eric the Red, had moved there because he had been banished from Iceland over a murder.

And of course the Greenland colony wasn't really sustainable, which is why it died out when a couple of hard turns came their way (climate change and getting cut off from trade for a few years).

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by acjohnson55 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:46PM (#28938844)
In Animal Crossing, you've got Tom Nook, a whole commercial infrastructure, and an airport to help you out.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by RhodesianHunter on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:44PM (#28938826)
Provided you're fit and capable it's not too hard until winter rolls around.

Surviving winter solo or in a small group is damned near impossible.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by s1artibartfast on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @09:04PM (#28938975)
That really depends on the location, tools you have, and familiarity with the environment.