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Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by antiterra on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @10:16AM (#28930918)
> just like adding branded content and sticking it in the skeletal husk of a bad shooter game for 12 year olds wasn't an improvement when Epic did it.

The reductive ‘Fortnite is for kids’ dismissal reminds me of the angry reaction by a particular cohort to the first cel-shaded Zelda game on the Gamecube. They dreamed of ‘realistic’ graphics targeted toward serious gamers and even claimed they were betrayed by WIP footage that teased their dream.

Fortnite is a game with an incredibly high skill ceiling around its building mechanic. I watched Jonathan ‘Fatal1ty’ Wendell (who is currently a 40-year-old and one of the earliest professional gamers) struggle in deep concentration on trying to incrementally improve his building speed and technique. I know many adults who play and enjoy the game, and they seem to enjoy the branded tie-ins. They are mature enough for their ego to be unaffected by the game’s cartoon art style, chosen instead of a gritty Call of Duty realism. It has solid mechanics and the content has been highly polished, even when not tied in to branded content.

Even so, I’m still not clear how that connects to Ready Player One being a dull and cynical exploitation of nostalgia shoutouts/callbacks.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by AlexandrB on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @11:29AM (#28931896)
If you have 20 minutes, this video[1] presents a good critique without mentioning aesthetics. It's especially notable how central the shop is to the whole experience.

I personally found Fortnite to be a huge slog to play - with tons of downtime compared even to games like CS: GO, let alone old-school arena shooters like Q3. The only thing that kept me coming back is the season pass reward tracks and daily missions.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPHPNgIihR0

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by tomc1985 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @12:06PM (#28932395)
> I personally found Fortnite to be a huge slog to play

I think that applies to the entire battle royale genre. Unless you're good, it's 20+ minutes of downtime (between waiting for the map to set, load, and for you to complete your jump and start finding opponents) for at minimum a few seconds of gameplay with an opponent.

It really pains me how so few people play arena shooters any more. They are brilliant, and you can get into (and stay in!) the thick of the action for the entire time you are logged on, save for the match ending and a new map loading.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by bentcorner on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @12:40PM (#28932816)
I play Apex Legends and I like that it's up to you for the kind of gaming experience you want. A buddy and I have played cautious slow looting gameplay, only 3rd partying near the end and have won many times.

Sometimes we drop hot and fight as soon as possible. This is vastly less successful but makes for shorter, faster, more intense games.

It helps that matchmaking and loading is generally quick so there isn't much "fluff" downtime.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by josefresco on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:44PM (#28933585)
Fortnite has this same element. Drop immediately off the bus into an area with lots of loot and you'll have instant action until you either die, or kill off every opponent in the area. Sure the movement in Apex Legends is faster and "feels" better to me, but the speed and complexity are actually cons for me as I don't have significant hours to invest whereas in Fortnite I can easily jump in once a week and compete.
Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by merlincorey on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @12:24PM (#28932598)
You might enjoy the recently re-released and currently available "Late Game Arena" mode which you can start within 1 or 2 minutes and be back in the lobby for another round 1 or 2 minutes later.

It starts you off the bus with a random but complete load out in a small circle with up to 60 (instead of 100) players.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by exdsq on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:55PM (#28937291)
Redownloading Apex for this now :D
Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by kipchak on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:47PM (#28933616)
I think one major cause of the decline of arena shooters is those who are very good can expect to never die versus new players, causing a very high Dropout rate. In Battle Royales like Fortnite where a player will eventually get the drop on a better player thanks to the element of surprise, picking off two players already fighting, or better gear.

Titanfall 2 is a somewhat recent example of a way to balance around this, with the more fun to use guns (Kraber, Cold War, Mozambique) but less effective than a hitscan bullet hose like the CAR. This video is a good example of what I mean, giving good players something to do other than racking up kills with meta weapons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5szruNvGT5c

Double Action: Boogaloo, an action movie themed source mod, takes this a step further with score being earned based largely on the weapon being used, which makes running around punching people more effective than say sitting in a corner with a powerful weapon.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by ineedasername on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:59PM (#28933773)
one major cause of the decline of arena shooters is those who are very good can expect to never die versus new players, causing a very high Dropout rate

I remember there was an interesting twist on this when, IIRC, Fortnite changed its matching algorithm to more likely place better players together with each other.

A bunch of those players were frustrate-to-outraged over the change. The reason that at least some gave? They were losing too much, and sometimes they don't want all the high adrenaline & stress of competitive matches and just want to relax and have it easy. (Yes, I know there have been more issues and complaints about the details of SBMM in Fortnite, this is just one of them)

It struck me as a uniquely selfish view, as though the entire ecosystem should be structured to their own enjoyment rather than that of typical players. Like if Gary Kasporov wanted to play in the local High School chess leagues and threw a fit when he was told he couldn't.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by GauntletWizard on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @03:27PM (#28935043)
It's a videogame. It should be structured for enjoyment. If you're not enjoying it, why are you spending your time playing?

There's a whole problem around "people want to beat other actual humans", but in 1:1 competitive games, the average winrate is tautologically always 50%. In Battle Royale, the average winrate is more like 5% - But it's unevenly distributed, so some players are getting 20-30% winrates while others are getting 1%. The game is fun enough to play that people are willing to take 1% winrates, but at some level you want to win - That's where the real fun is. If you never win, the game is not fun. If you win occasionally, against skilled opponents, it feels like a great victory. If you win often, it's relaxing.

(There exist some exceptions to "average winrate" - Asymetric games can have a per-player average winrate above 1, though can just as easily drop below - Dead By Daylight, for example, lists 1.5B "escapes" to 1.8B "sacrifices"[1] - Did the survivor "win" when they escaped? or did the killer "win" when they killed a player? It might make more sense to view it as a set of 1:1s, since each survivor might escape individually, at which case we're back to square 1)

Ultimately, games live or die on being fun.

[1]https://techraptor.net/gaming/news/dead-by-daylight-5th-anni...

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by kipchak on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:18PM (#28935885)
Creating ways for multiple players to win in one given match seems like it could be a way to balance out this issue. For example my team winning, top scoring, having the highest number of kills, the highest KD, scoring the most meta-XP or completing an achievement could all be different win conditions for different players. For example in Team Fortress 2 my team could lose and I could be bottom of the scoreboard and still feel like I won after getting a couple market gardener kills.
Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by smolder on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:57PM (#28938938)
Yes, you're right that it's selfish, but that's also fundamental to competition. Winners take the glory that losers don't get. People enjoy winning more than hard work. So do groups of people: sports teams, governments, LLCs, etc.

Gamers often abuse the matchmaking systems to get this result themselves. They make "smurf" accounts in the competitive games they like, underrated for their skill level either from being new accounts or by intentional losing, because it let's them bully less skilled players and avoid being bullied themselves.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by kipchak on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @03:05PM (#28934744)
I believe there was similar complaints over SBMM in CoD Cold War. I'm mildly sympathetic to the view as playing players of different skill levels can be fun in some some situations, like learning tricks from better players or having a underdog comeback against a better team. Not quite the same highs or lows, if that makes sense. Some implementations seem more like they wind up targeting a 50/50 win rate, resulting in games that seem like the system expects them to be a loss. Overwatch felt closer to this for me.

Overall I think the best solution is probably the old fashioned dedicated server, where people can find a group with a roughly similar playstyle and skill level, but still enough variety to not be overly same-ey per game. I have fond memories of going up against and cursing better server regulars, and then having it flipped around when on their team.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by AlexandrB on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:04PM (#28933847)
I like the movement in Titanfall 2 a lot. It feels like an evolution of the wall-jumping in UT2k4.

I definitely believe that there's a high dropout rate for areas shooters. My experience was dying a lot until I got better - kind of like Dark Souls for multiplayer. But I'm still surprised that they're not popular anymore given how well single player Dark Souls sells.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by tomc1985 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:51PM (#28934549)
Idunno I feel like most of the arena games did a decent job of holding your hand and providing a single player campaign that is good enough to level up skills with a bit. Also back in the day there were a lot more LAN parties, and with the dominance of server browsers it was easier to get into a community that was at a suitable skill level.

But that does mirror my experience with newer games... the matchmaker usually isn't very good and I'm always put into games with players greatly better than me until I git gud.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by bee_rider on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @03:03PM (#28934716)
In Dark Souls, other than a couple bosses which require playing reasonably well the whole way through, most enemies only have a couple gimmicks. You die to that gimmick once, go recover your souls, and then beat the enemy. There's a concrete sense of progress. Humans more likely have a pretty big bag of tricks, or just better fundamentals and map knowledge. I mean over the course of a game in an arena shooter, you'd probably just get incrementally better, right? It is unlikely that the top scorer of the leaderboard only had a couple gimmicks that you have to figure out and then win, haha.
Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by fouric on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:14PM (#28935811)
> one major cause of the decline of arena shooters is those who are very good can expect to never die versus new players

Keeping track of MMR/ELO and trying to match players against others of similar skill is online matchmaking 100 (not even 101). What reason could a game possibly have to not implement it, except for possibly "lack of resources" (e.g. someone's indie project)?

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by kipchak on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:01PM (#28936525)
It's probably worth tracking and considering as a metric for matchmaking, but a couple potential downsides could be lowering the player pool where other parameters like latency have to be expanded, it having the potential for reverse boosting/smurfing in order to grantee stomping worse players, and at least some people not finding it enjoyable depending on implementation/complaining about "forced" 50:50 winrates.[1][2] Not to say it's necessarily worse than the alternative, but there's at least some discontent with at least some of the implementations.

Overwatch for example doesn't seem to try and fill in say 6 players of a range of 2500-2600 ELO, but will pull something like 2 higher ELO player and 4 low ELO players, partially due to there only being so many higher than average players to matchmake.[3] "Good" players get "bad" players to bring down their winrate and "bad" players get "good" players to bring theirs up. This miss-match might contribute to why some people become so toxic, especially when having fun relies on your teammates so heavily and everyone wants to be the DPS.

Also personally I enjoy playing against better players (within reason) in order to improve my own gameplay via imitation.

[1]https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/84ad72a8b518479785...

[2]https://www.reddit.com/r/blackopscoldwar/comments/ifwuy4/sbm...

[3]https://win.gg/news/jeff-kaplan-on-overwatch-players-matchma...

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by smolder on Thursday October 21, 2021 @07:58AM (#28943157)
Splitgate is a recently popular free to play arena shooter which is basically a Halo knockoff but with the addition of portals like in the game Portal. It's worth checking out.
Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by baq on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:17PM (#28933260)
a recent example of an absolutely great release which flopped hard, diabotical by 2GD and company. Q3 physics with some twists, very limited downtime, as hardcore as it gets, unfortunately no players...
Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by bitwize on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:40PM (#28934402)
If you want action, drop into an area dense with players (city areas are good, as they have lots of loot). Then, you're either very good and somewhat lucky, or you'll die straight off.

Engaging with others early is recommended for top-tier Fortnite players for building your combat skills.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by tomc1985 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:13PM (#28937486)
> If you want action,

> recommended [...] for building your combat skills.

Or log onto a 32-man running CTF-Face][

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by Kiro on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:36PM (#28936142)
> with tons of downtime compared even to games like CS: GO, let alone old-school arena shooters like Q3

To me, they are completely different games. I love the slowness in BR and tension that builds up between the action.

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by merlincorey on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @11:22AM (#28931791)
Everything you are saying about the skill ceiling in Fortnite, I completely agree from watching as well as playing the game over the years.

Another point is that Creative mode in Fortnite is thought to soon allow full Unreal Engine Blueprints and open modding.

The "mode selection" screen recently was turned into Netflix or Hulu like "tiles" with the majority of the tiles being Creative maps made by the community.

Fortnite is making a pretty strong "metaverse" play with Creative and the recently released by Epic Games "Imposters" mode shows that you will soon be able to play nearly any game "in Fortnite".

Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by bcrosby95 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:11PM (#28933196)
Yeah, and it's actually a pretty terrible attitude to have if you're into gaming because a large segment of the population thinks all video games are for 12 year olds.
Re:Facebook plans to change its name as part of company rebrand by peeters on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:45PM (#28934464)
> Fortnite is a game with an incredibly high skill ceiling around its building mechanic. I watched Jonathan ‘Fatal1ty’ Wendell (who is currently a 40-year-old and one of the earliest professional gamers) struggle in deep concentration on trying to incrementally improve his building speed and technique.

When I think of the slogan "Fortnite is for kids" it rings true precisely for this reason. In my "old age" I simply can't keep up with the input rate/reaction time of high-level players.