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Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by kelnos on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:04PM (#28910030)
> "Guilty until proven innocent" is exactly how "DMCA safe harbor" is designed.

No, it's not. Google has gone so far above and beyond the DMCA's requirements here that it's hard to even see the DMCA at play at all.

If they were only following the DMCA rules, the video uploader would have the opportunity to send a counter-claim to Google, saying that they don't believe the content is infringing. Google then would put the video back up, without taking on any liability. If the original DMCA claimant still believes there's infringement going on, then their only recourse is to file a lawsuit against the uploader (not against Google, as Google has done their duty under the safe harbor provisions).

But instead, Google has decided to bend over backwards and create this Draconian mess that prioritizes the will of the big copyright holding cartels.

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by jasode on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:45PM (#28910616)
>, then their only recourse is to file a lawsuit against the uploader (not against Google, as Google has done their duty under the safe harbor provisions).

Your assessment is incorrect for the legal options a DMCA claimant will use and doesn't match how previous legal proceedings actually played out.

E.g. Viacom still filed a lawsuit against Google because they disputed that 'safe harbor' applied Youtube.[1]

Google did settle with Viacom (helped by offering ContentID as a tool) but they didn't win any definitive court ruling on "safe harbor" that makes Google lawsuit-proof in the future.

[1] Example articles from 1st page of results: https://www.google.com/search?q=viacom+lawsuit+google+%22saf...

https://www.finnegan.com/en/insights/blogs/incontestable/goo....

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/03/viacom-and-googl...

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by judge2020 on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:13PM (#28910152)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viacom_International_Inc._v._Y.... (from https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/24/technology/24google.html):

> Viacom said it was not seeking damages for any actions since Google put in its filtering system, known as content ID, in early 2008.

Obviously other media giants weren't going to let Viacom be the only one with access to this profit machine, so now pretty much all global media giants have access to Content ID.

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by didibus on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:57PM (#28910766)
This seems very relevant, Googled settled, and probably that involved the preemptive use of content ID.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by phoneperson on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:40PM (#28911412)
The US took down kickasstorrents and arrested its founder in Poland despite them following the DMCA. You have to suck up the media companies to be allowed to host a service these days.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by CobrastanJorji on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:55PM (#28911600)
The DMCA is complicated, but you may not qualify as a safe harbor if you have actual knowledge of infringing content or if you're aware of facts or circumstances from which infringing activity is apparent. Running a website called "Kickasstorrents" may not qualify.

But in the realpolitik sense, I agree. Foreign company, angry US business interests, etc. I doubt this was argued out reasonably in a court beforehand.

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by xmprt on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:36PM (#28912091)
Torrents aren't necessarily illegal so I'm not sure why running a website called "kickasstorrents" is relevant.

I've seen a lot of software legally distributed using torrents where even the software creators link to torrents that you can use.

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by coldtea on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:43PM (#28912177)
>Torrents aren't necessarily illegal so I'm not sure why running a website called "kickasstorrents" is relevant.

Because we all know that website and what torrents it had. That "torrents aren't necessarily illegal" are neither here, nor there. Their torrents were illegal.

(Not that I'm against it, but well, it's not like they're fooling anyone with the "torrents aren't necessarily illegal" defense for their particular case. That wasn't some FOSS/PD software torrent site, and that wasn't why people visited it, or why it was run...).

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by nitrogen on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:11PM (#28912473)
Their torrents were illegal.

Was that true in the countries where they had a local presence?

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by beernutz on Monday October 18, 2021 @07:04PM (#28912941)
Torrents themselves are NOT illegal. They contain no copyrighted data. At all.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by rtkwe on Monday October 18, 2021 @07:43PM (#28913270)
It's close enough though that it's a pretty easy case to make for contributory infringement.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by mechanical_bear on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @01:28AM (#28915153)
That certainly isn’t settled law.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by coldtea on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @08:11AM (#28917228)
Good luck arguing that in court
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by coldtea on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @03:41AM (#28915758)
That's more like a drug dealer caught with 200 plastic bags of cocaine saying plastic bags are not illegal, they contain no drug substances at all. Sure, but most of the torrents they had there pointed to copyrighted data, and facilitated their download, which is illegal.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by phoneperson on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @07:02AM (#28916815)
More like someone telling people who their dealer is, except the dealers give away copies of books for free, some legal but most illegal.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by phoneperson on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:12PM (#28912479)
I did download an Ubuntu ISO from there more than a decade ago, and some films that I presume were in the public domain due to their age.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by monocasa on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:41PM (#28912732)
Interestingly, copyright for video is very complicated, and the remastering process necessary to convert from film stock to digital generally has enough creative input legally to be considered valid for copyright protection. I don't think it's currently possible for a digital film to be aged out of copyright.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by coldtea on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @03:38AM (#28915741)
Well, my drug dealer also sold me a watch once. But 99% he had crack for sale.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by markdown on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:33PM (#28912666)
> Their torrents were illegal.

Illegal in the US.

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by coldtea on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @03:38AM (#28915746)
And most of the world, where international agreements hold.
Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by autoexec on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:34PM (#28912674)
> No, it's not. Google has gone so far above and beyond the DMCA's requirements here

Media companies insist that Google do more and more and they are willing to drag google into court and will lobby congress to force google and (everyone else) to bow to their whims.

Extorting 14 year old kids and broke college students for settlement money is nice and everything, but Google has very deep pockets and the the media cartels would love to get their hands on Google's money just like they want to take billions from ISPs

I do blame google for going along with it when they have the clout and resources to fight them, but the real issue is our horribly broken copyright system

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by echelon on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:11PM (#28910108)
Google decided to cozy up to the music and film industries to support Google Play Services. They are forced to bend to their will for their contract.

If YouTube was divorced from Google, YouTube would be friendlier to creators.

Counter argument: some of the top performing content on YouTube is made by the establishment. But then again, Google created this status quo by using their algorithm to promote content that satisfies their partners.

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by vkou on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:49PM (#28912253)
You are forgetting that YouTube was nearly got sued out of existence, until it bent over backwards to please the publishers.

Your theory that it went beyond the requirements of the settlement with Viacom is interesting, but unless you have insider information as to the terms of it, it is at best, speculative.

Would you stake billions of dollars on the legal theory that if YouTube followed the DMCA to the letter of the law, publishers would not be able to successfully sue them?

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by DaiPlusPlus on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:31PM (#28912651)
> Counter argument: some of the top performing content on YouTube is made by the establishment. But then again, Google created this status quo by using their algorithm to promote content that satisfies their partners.

Counter-anecdote: None of my recommended content on YouTube is from established media companies. YouTube's profiling of my account definitely puts me squarely in the "Tom Scott and Technology Connections" demographic - but even so on the times when I've let YouTube's auto-play do its thing I've never been steered towards mainstream media from Viacom and the like (unless you count the occasional clip from a decades-old Discovery Channel docu or unauthorized BBC Top Gear upload)

-----------

What weirds me out about "normal-persons' YouTube" that I see when borrowing non-tech-sector friends' devices is there's a lot of top 40 that's right there - I wonder if that's what you're seeing?

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by paxys on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:53PM (#28912286)
> If YouTube was divorced from Google, YouTube would be friendlier to creators.

If YouTube was divorced from Google it would have ceased existing a decade ago.

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by AlbertCory on Monday October 18, 2021 @09:57PM (#28914049)
I was in Google and helped YT with their search ads (not the pre-roll and "inside the video" and all that stuff everyone hates). Anyhow, I did try looking into their actual "egress" costs and I pity the fool who has to deconstruct that for a court case.

It's immensely complicated, because videos are cached all around the world. Someone in Bangladesh watching YT videos is not always fetching them from the US, you can be sure of that.

So "profit" is definitely an opinion, not a fact. If YT was divorced from Google, it would become a fact.

Re:YouTube: filmmakers presumed guilty until maybe proven in... by izacus on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @04:02AM (#28915870)
> If YouTube was divorced from Google, YouTube would be friendlier to creators.

YouTube's primary means of profit is as a music platform playing RIAA protected copyrighted music mostly owned by Sony, Universal and other media conglomerates.

YouTube's profits are fully dependant on whether these conglomerates allow their popular artists to host music on the platform so your idea is very very misguided.