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Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by littlestymaar on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:24PM (#28899014)
> Well, Europe's nuclear power plants are on average more than 35 years old

Which is half of their lifetime by American standards.

> In 2019 France had 5580 reactor days with zero production.

That means 75% of availability. Good luck finding any renewable source with such a figure ;).

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by TomK32 on Sunday October 17, 2021 @07:45PM (#28900759)
According to the IEAA power plants have a typical design lifespan of 30-40 years which can be extended with proper care https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/extending-operational-l... and let's be honest, the US aren't that much better: > "Since 2001, the ROP has resulted in more than 4,000 inspection findings concerning nuclear power plant licensees' failure to fully comply with NRC regulations and industry standards for safe plant operation, and NRC has subjected more than 75 percent (79) of the 103 operating plants to increased oversight for varying periods" https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-06-1029.pdf Those findings are mostly small unimportant issues, but if the lifespan of a plant creeps upwards the severe issues will become more common.

BTW, the list of cancelled power plants (even ones under construction) in the US is pretty long https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cancelled_nuclear_reac... and even the only reactors currently under construction where are risk of being abandoned. The budget is of course overrun and completion set back by six years, so far. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Pla...

Those 5580 were 1700 more than planned. It's like saying: I can use my car two months a year due to maintenance and being fine with it not working for a third month. I

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by littlestymaar on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:44AM (#28903136)
The cancelling of power plants is a political decision due to the lack of popularity of nuclear. It's not that we can't build plants, it's that there is no political will to do so.

> Those 5580 were 1700 more than planned. It's like saying: I can use my car two months a year due to maintenance and being fine with it not working for a third month.

Welcome to the real world of industrial processes, these aren't cars. Maintenance are run on tight schedules[1], so there can easily be delays (this isn't specific to nuclear though, you'd find delays during maintenance for every kind of electric production site). Also, small problems happen all the time, and because of nuclear's super high safety requirements, when those small things happen, you stop the reactor and fix it.

BTW, around one third of those 1700 days came from small issues at Fessenheim that EDF decided not to fix and keep the reactor off because the plant was planned for closure by the end of the year. You're not gonna fix you car if you know it's gonna be seized soon right?

[1] mostly because like in every business, project manager are like “it's late: workers were lazy. It's dine before the deadline: we gave them too much time”.

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by pfdietz on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:29AM (#28903990)
The cancellation of new nuclear power plants in the US was overwhelmingly due to economics. In the first nuclear buildout, reactors came in more expensive than promised, demand growth slowed, and then the grids were opened to non-utility generators. This happened again more recently with the nuclear renaissance: projected demand growth again failed to materialize, reactor construction was more expensive than promised (Watts Bar 2, V.C. Summer, Vogtle), and large quantities of fracked gas became available.
Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by debacle on Sunday October 17, 2021 @04:04PM (#28899329)
Hydro has close to 100% availability, especially if you aren't talking dams.
Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by littlestymaar on Sunday October 17, 2021 @04:19PM (#28899436)
Hydro is amazing when it comes to electricity generation, but for that reason it has already been developed as much as possible during the whole 20th century and there's really little room for enhancement (and when the technology progresses, it's quickly deployed).

In fact, I like to say that the only viable option to get 100% RE is to lower our energy consumption until hydro can cover the majority of our needs.

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by cm2187 on Sunday October 17, 2021 @06:04PM (#28900220)
And there are so many valleys you can flood.
Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by debacle on Sunday October 17, 2021 @10:51PM (#28901805)
And dams are incredibly ecologically devastating.
Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by forrestthewoods on Sunday October 17, 2021 @05:31PM (#28899978)
There isn’t enough hydro potential on the planet to produce the amount energy we need.

It’s also worth pointing out that while hydro is renewable, it isn’t clean. Dams are ecological nightmares.

Hydro will like be part of our energy profile indefinitely. But it will never be more than a small fraction. And in the long run that fraction will get smaller as global energy demand continues to grow.

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by pfdietz on Sunday October 17, 2021 @08:34PM (#28901031)
There is enormous potential for off-river pumped hydro storage, though. Geography that doesn't have much if any natural water flow can still hold vast amounts of water in enclosed areas.
Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by rsj_hn on Sunday October 17, 2021 @04:10PM (#28899375)
Hydro is great, but limited.

IMO, most industrialized nations have already tapped hydro about as much as it can be tapped, given some constraints about wildlife habitat. But I'd be happy to be corrected -- what new hydro projects do you think we should be doing, and how much power do you think they'd provide?

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by RF_Savage on Sunday October 17, 2021 @04:39PM (#28899589)
It is also very hard to get buy-in for large new hydro plants. The resevoirs behind the damms cover a lot of area and people don't like their homes being under water. There are also ecological considerations like trout and salmon migration. Due to this they are actually demolishing old, low power legacy hydro plants and re-naturalizing the river.
Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by rsj_hn on Sunday October 17, 2021 @05:07PM (#28899797)
Yup. Somehow climate change is supposed to be this planetary existential threat, but not, you know, so existential as to allow a salmon to be endangered or to risk building a nuclear plant.
Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by eru on Sunday October 17, 2021 @10:27PM (#28901678)
Climate change isn't actually a planetary existential threat, despite all the fear mongering you hear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impacts_of_climate_ch... and the more alarmist https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/06/impact-climate-change... say that the global economic impact of climate change will likely amount to about 10% of world GDP, and perhaps as much as 20%.

Those are huge, huge numbers! But to put them in perspective, it's less than the difference between living in, say, present day US vs present day UK. Big impact, but hardly planetarily existential.

And, yes, there's more to live than economics. But if life goes on normally enough that we can even not only still talk about GDP with any meaning, but even say that we are going to preserve 80% to 90% of GDP, things won't be too apocalyptic.

Keep in mind that this is 80% of a far larger pie than today, since normal economic growth will continue.

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by littlestymaar on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:46AM (#28903145)
> say that the global economic impact of climate change will likely amount to about 10% of world GDP, and perhaps as much as 20%.

So maybe that's why governments don't act, relying on abstract GDP numbers. «A good chunk of the tropical era of the world is going to be uninhabitable[1]? Who cares, it's only gonna cost us 10% of GDP».

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/08/climate/climate-change-he...

> it's less than the difference between living in, say, present day US vs present day UK. Big impact, but hardly planetarily existential.

Like, the difference between living in Birmingham or living in the death valley?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/30/world/canada/bc-canada-he...

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by dragonwriter on Sunday October 17, 2021 @10:41PM (#28901757)
> Climate change isn't actually a planetary existential threat, despite all the fear mongering you hear.

Well, no, the planet will not be destroyed. The issue is the lifestyle of the semi-hairless apes on the planet.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impacts_of_climate_ch... and the more alarmist https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/06/impact-climate-change... say that the global economic impact of climate change will likely amount to about 10% of world GDP, and perhaps as much as 20%

No, its that it will grow to that share by 2050 (which is less than 30 years away) and keep growing.

> At a (somewhat generous) 3% baseline growth rate,

At a fairly generous 3% baseline growth rate, 2.35× current world GDP, for a projected population of 9.7 billion to todays 7.9 billion, so (pre-climate change impacts) a little under double the current GDP/capita.

Of course, the losses arent, expected to be evenly distributed among countries, regions, etc., so if you aren't a well-diversified capitalist (say you are working class) and in the wrong place or industry, you have a good chance at seeing dramatically* greater impacts.

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by eru on Sunday October 17, 2021 @10:43PM (#28901768)
Yes, those are big impacts. Just not existential impacts even just for humanity.

> Of course, the losses arent, expected to be evenly distributed among countries, regions, etc., so if you aren't a well-diversified capitalist (say you are working class) and in the wrong place or industry, you have a good chance at seeing dramatically* greater impacts.

Yes, averages hide a lot of variance.

Of course, this is another good reason in favour of allowing freer migration around the globe.

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by dragonwriter on Sunday October 17, 2021 @11:11PM (#28901884)
> Of course, this is another good reason in favour of allowing freer migration around the globe.

From the perspective of the people in places likely to see lesser adverse impacts, its a reason against freer inbound migration.

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by eru on Monday October 18, 2021 @01:31AM (#28902515)
Why? For those people it's at worst a neutral argument, as getting migrants ain't bad for you (and is arguably good).

Of course, now we'd have to discuss who 'you' is. If you are talking about individual people, or about eg some statistical measure of the country or county as a whole.

See also https://openborders.info/keyhole-solutions/ which would suggest to eg just charge people to immigrate.

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by m4rtink on Sunday October 17, 2021 @05:11PM (#28899834)
Dam the Gibraltar! ;-)

Totally renewable - and not just hydro, but also solar (which takes care of the water you let in)!

And yes, this has been proposed and is physically possible & it alreadyhappened for geological reasons in the past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by eru on Sunday October 17, 2021 @10:21PM (#28901639)
Careful there: you might mess with the salt and mineral concentrations in the Mediterranean Sea. And, of course, there's lots of shipping through the straits of Gibraltar that you have to accommodate.
Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by m4rtink on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:57AM (#28903200)
No problem withbsalinity in the most extreme varuants of this - you effectively let the whole Mediterranean Sea evapirate and only let in enough water to keep it this way, effectively making the whole scheme solar driven. That way you can also build multiple dams between island chains and get even more power, before the water eventually evaporates on the bottom most salt pan.

Also takes care of shipping. ;-) Although I guess you could build a near shore shipping channel, possibly filled with fresh water from rivers.

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by eru on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @04:49AM (#28916100)
> No problem with salinity in the most extreme variants of this - you effectively let the whole Mediterranean Sea evaporate [...]

Well, then you still need to deal with the salt both as a onetime measure.

Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by TomK32 on Sunday October 17, 2021 @07:50PM (#28900783)
There's a far better option with the Qattara depression.
Re:The booming business of knitting together the world’s ele... by eru on Sunday October 17, 2021 @10:20PM (#28901636)
It has something like 100% availability throughout the day, yes.

But throughout the year capacity varies.

And, of course, there's only so many sites that can support dams. So you have to ask 100% of _what_? And is that enough?