News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by pugio on Saturday October 16, 2021 @03:53PM (#28890888)
> "The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore.

I would suggest that perhaps you are limiting your scope of possible "we" (21st century human) thought states. The passage seems to me perfectly clear. For reference, the full quote is:

> "The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom declares that the internal liberation of human beings to live the responsible life before God is the only genuine way to overcome stupidity."

He's discussing one way out of the trap of conforming to group/tribal beliefs. If you put your fear of God (in other words, some power higher than, and distinctly external to, any social group) you begin to liberate yourself from caring too much about what other people think.

If you believe that God demands that you act as morally (for some definition/code) and as responsibly as possible, and you place that demand/requirement higher than any other motivating feeling, you will ask about any belief or course of action "Is this Right?" (ie. Does this align with God's command), and consider that question more deeply than the creeds or slogans of your fellow mortals.

Note that he's not saying that the above state of mind is easy, it's merely something just strive for. Many devout religious people still try to the best of their ability to work towards that exact state.

Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by UncleOxidant on Saturday October 16, 2021 @05:40PM (#28891836)
> He's discussing one way out of the trap of conforming to group/tribal beliefs. If you put your fear of God (in other words, some power higher than, and distinctly external to, any social group) you begin to liberate yourself from caring too much about what other people think.

This is well said. I believe it was the theologian Stanley Hauerwas who said in the 70s that the decline of religion in America would inevitably lead to the rise of political tribalism - seems prescient.

"There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship [...] is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your own body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly, and when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally plant you. On one level, we all know this stuff already - it's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, bromides, epigrams, parables: the skeleton of every great story. The trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness." David Foster Wallace

Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by mbrodersen on Saturday October 16, 2021 @07:31PM (#28892535)
I am pretty sure I don’t warship anything. Not even logical thinking or reasoning. Nothing is perfect. Everything is flawed or limited in applicability. No human is either 100% good or evil. Everything depends on context. So what is there to worship?
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by dandotway on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:08AM (#28894556)
> Nothing is perfect

If logical thinking is, as you say, imperfect, is it possible that your own conclusion that no perfect things exist is itself an imperfect conclusion? If you use this word perfect, you at least have the Idea of Perfect, even if no perfect things exist. This kind of funny talk I'm using about Ideas of perfect things goes back 2400 years to Plato and his Theory of Forms[1]. According to the philosopher-logician A. N. Whitehead:

  The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition
  is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_forms
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by mbrodersen on Thursday October 21, 2021 @06:37PM (#28951681)
Yep it is fun to think about. Especially when you realise that information is not abstract but physics. I recommend reading the “Constructor Theory of Information” if you haven’t already. It is free online.
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by pstuart on Saturday October 16, 2021 @11:53PM (#28893800)
> So what is there to worship?

David Bowie.

Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by mbrodersen on Sunday October 17, 2021 @05:51PM (#28900119)
That made me smile :-)
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by Mitzz on Saturday October 16, 2021 @07:40PM (#28892604)
Dietrich Bonhoeffer (as I understand him) would undoubtedly say that Jesus Christ is both perfect God and perfect Man, and therefore Jesus Christ is what there is to worship.

Based upon my understanding of him, his allegiance to Jesus Christ is what motivated his actions that resulted in his death at the hands of the Nazis.

edit: typo

Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by mbrodersen on Saturday October 16, 2021 @08:20PM (#28892820)
My argument was that I (for one) doesn’t worship Jesus Christ, the Buddha, Ra the sun god, humans, myself or anything else. So the argument that we all worship something is false. Dietrich might have been worshipping a god or humans but that is besides the point.
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by pkphilip on Sunday October 17, 2021 @11:57AM (#28897364)
The term "worship" isn't limited to the worship of any deity alone - as the quote itself indicates. It includes worship of things such as beauty, youthfulness, fame, wealth... or whatever that consumes your thinking
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by mbrodersen on Sunday October 17, 2021 @05:50PM (#28900116)
Agree. And I don’t worship any of those. Which was my original point.
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by Mitzz on Saturday October 16, 2021 @08:28PM (#28892874)
Fair enough.
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by gastroturf on Sunday October 17, 2021 @02:40AM (#28894472)
I could not find that particular statement by Hauerwas, but it seems to be a (valid, IMO) narrow interpretation of his perspective in this paper[1]. Do you have an exact citation?

Prescient indeed, and to me, disturbing.

[1]: https://stanleyhauerwas.org/the-importance-of-being-catholic...

edit: typo

Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by UncleOxidant on Monday October 18, 2021 @12:28PM (#28907334)
Sorry, not Hauerwas, Lesslie Newbign, probably in his Foolishness of the Greeks from '86, but I suspect he wrote earlier on the topic as well. See: https://www.pastortheologians.com/articles/2020/10/28/politi...
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by AlbertCory on Saturday October 16, 2021 @08:05PM (#28892742)
Thanks, never heard of Stanley Hauerwas.

Of course, I wouldn't take David Foster Wallace (or anyone who killed himself, actually) as an authority on anything.

Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by dxdm on Sunday October 17, 2021 @06:36AM (#28895425)
I don't know how much some god is going to help. Isn't your belief of what your god wants you to do, or at the very least lets you get away with, shaped by your group? If you're already caught in group dynamics, then your god's authority will probably act through the group. People seem to use their gods to reinforce what they already want to think or do.
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by Mitzz on Saturday October 16, 2021 @04:13PM (#28891056)
Well said.

Personally I imperfectly strive to think this way, and I imagine at least hundreds of millions of others do as well.

Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by AlbertCory on Saturday October 16, 2021 @04:22PM (#28891135)
Well said.

Of course, he was a minister, so he'd spent his life thinking about that.

Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by bmj on Saturday October 16, 2021 @05:30PM (#28891746)
And as a theologian whose work included a book on Christian ethics, and The Cost of Discipleship.
Re:Bonhoeffer on Stupidity by AlbertCory on Saturday October 16, 2021 @08:07PM (#28892750)
It's really too bad he didn't survive the war and help us with the understanding of it all. There's never enough of that.