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Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by thomasahle on Friday October 15, 2021 @11:18PM (#28885271)
> I’d rather just quit than try to change a company this way.

What if you found every other company were the same way?

> Or I’d just work into leadership and make executive decisions.

There are much fewer leadership positions than people in those companies. It can't be the general recommendation that if you want to make your workplace better you have to compete for one of a handful of positions.

That's like telling somebody living in a monarchy that if they want influence over their lives, they just have to marry into the royal family.

Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by lowkey_ on Friday October 15, 2021 @11:33PM (#28885334)
> What if you found every other company were the same way?

Then make your own company, or failing that, start to think critically about why every company is structured in the way it is. Maybe others have tried it your way and it didn't work?

> That's like telling somebody living in a monarchy that if they want influence over their lives, they just have to marry into the royal family.

Luckily, because of the freedom this country offers us, the solution is instead to (per the metaphor) go to another of the million monarchies, create your own monarchy, or, yes, work your way up in the monarchy. If you decide to start causing chaos and sowing discontent in your current kingdom, then you may be kicked out of it.

Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by ruined on Friday October 15, 2021 @11:50PM (#28885407)
to continue in that metaphor, it's worth noting that here and most anywhere with something resembling "the freedom this country offers" was formerly a monarchy in which people thinking critically about the way it was structured started causing chaos and sowing discontent, so they could try this other way that people didn't think would work. say about that what you will.

it's not surprising that efforts are being made today to decentralize power within the private sphere and create broader rights and democratic management of capital. it's the place people feel most pressure in their lives today, feel the most helpless, and unable to act in their own interests or make their own way.

and of course people who are invested in the current system of management will make arguments that it is perfectly rational and any other system cannot work.

maybe everyone trying this will get kicked out. but i don't think that will discourage or prevent groups like this, because that doesn't kill the motivation. it's simply selection pressure for tactics that are more decentralized, more direct, popular, faster, and harder to shut down.

Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by worrycue on Saturday October 16, 2021 @02:03AM (#28885892)
> it's not surprising that efforts are being made today to decentralize power within the private sphere and create broader rights and democratic management of capital.

So does Joe the plumber whom you hired to fix the sink now have rights to determine how your household is run? Does he and Jimmy the electrician (who wired up the place) get to vote on who can live in your house or what the household budget should be spent on?

Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by ruined on Saturday October 16, 2021 @11:56AM (#28888734)
if Joe the plumber came to my house every day to plumb for me the way i asked, and i handled his healthcare and bought him all his pipes and tools, and he depended on me and i on him by the terms of our agreement, yeah i should probably listen to him if he has a concern

if he and Jimmy and the thousand other dudes that apparently come to my house every day all have feelings about something, it might end up looking like a democratic process

but it would be really silly to run a huge business like that out of my home. good thing Joe and Jimmy only come by once in a while and don't give a fuck what i do here.

anyway, strawmen like yours or mine are irrelevant, materially it's clear that workers in large companies are seeking to reform governance processes of those companies and gain more control. they will probably continue to try regardless of anyone else's opinion of it, they are systemically incentivized, because more control would benefit them.

Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by worrycue on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:23AM (#28903306)
You can listen to him but you don’t have to - especially when he is talking about things outside his area of specialty.
Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by mostertoaster on Saturday October 16, 2021 @12:51AM (#28885639)
> Democratic management of capital

That’s probably the best euphemism I’ve heard since “enhanced interrogation techniques”

Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by Apocryphon on Saturday October 16, 2021 @02:04AM (#28885899)
That could just mean worker co-ops. What's so scary about Mondragón?
Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by mostertoaster on Saturday October 16, 2021 @03:06AM (#28886109)
I didn’t say anything was scary did I? I wasn’t necessarily trying to say it was like torture. It just sounds like something Bernie Sanders would say. It’s not socialism, it’s democratic socialism.

I mean I’m fine with a democracy on the board of a company, I just don’t think it is wise to have everyone be on the board.

Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by Apocryphon on Saturday October 16, 2021 @03:13AM (#28886151)
My larger point is that "democratic management of capital" doesn't have to mean socialism of any kind, it can mean worker co-ops, which can exist in social democratic, free market capitalist, hell even ancap utopian conceptions of stateless libertarian societies. It's just a management style.

> I mean I’m fine with a democracy on the board of a company, I just don’t think it is wise to have everyone be on the board.

Some companies are co-ops and have made it work. It depends, and is perhaps worth trying more.

Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by ruined on Saturday October 16, 2021 @11:52AM (#28888694)
it's not a euphemism? it's a literalism.

i don't think anyone would disagree that currently widespread models of management don't involve democratic processes.

a lot of the activism internal to large companies today is in direct response to perceived failures of management, and seeks to demonstrate broad internal support for specific actions. they would be satisfied if they had an institutional remedy instead of just petitions to the "king"

Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by burnished on Friday October 15, 2021 @11:47PM (#28885394)
Or, use your freedom to stay where you are and try to change things. You can't pull the freedom card to tell some one they should do something else. Its not consistent.
Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by thomasahle on Saturday October 16, 2021 @12:18AM (#28885513)
> If you decide to start causing chaos and sowing discontent in your current kingdom, then you may be kicked out of it.

You are right. It's hardly surprising. Most revolutions fail. Yet as outsiders we can appreciate the try, cheer on, or maybe even help (like the French did?) Maybe one day that help will be returned.

Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by nradov on Friday October 15, 2021 @11:36PM (#28885344)
Your question makes no sense. Not every company is the same way. There are other companies with different cultural values and employment policies. Apple doesn't operate any company towns where there are no other employers.
Re:Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement by mostertoaster on Saturday October 16, 2021 @12:56AM (#28885654)
That’s true. I still think it is better if we just accept that “they’re the boss”. I don’t want their job, I don’t want a vote on the board, that’s more responsibility then I can handle. They’re the boss and they decide. If they’re unethical, or treat people like shit, I’ll quit. I haven’t yet had a manager, CEO, or board has forced me to quit.